Hi all - Need help.. I smoke alot of fish - Have a classic dry brine (mostly sugar and salt) I have used for years. I has a masterbuilt electric smoker I used for years that died. Always used 1 tray of chips. Love the fish and always came out good. decided to get a model 1 for my next smoker. So far, I have ruined several fish! I am using chunks from Smokenlicious. I tried 4 chunks and 3 chunks. The fish is nearly black and very bitter. I am so disappointed so far. I may get a new pit boss. I must be doing something wrong. Try chips again? 1 chunk or 2? Please help - My favorite smoked fish is quickly becoming a memory of the past!!
Bitter flavor
- Thread starter mertzer13
- Start date
I believe you are using way too much wood.. I have smoked fish using the maple or cherry from Smokin-liscious and have had good results.. Attached is a document that is on-this site to give you recommendations on smoke time and amount of wood. I only use 2-3oz's of wood on fish and some of the larger chunks (fillets) of wood are about this size. I always weigh my wood to confirm the exact amount.. Good luck on your next attempt..
mertzer13 said:
It's counter-intuitive how little wood the Smokin-Its need and it's a pretty solid finding that when the result is bitter that it's too much wood. For some fish you wouldn't need more than an ounce of wood. If you don't have a scale then think of children's wooden alphabet blocks as a guide. You need no more than 1/2 to 1 alphabet block of wood for your fish.
Just in case there are other factors, would you like to tell us more about your overall process? Are you pre-heating the smoker? What temperature are you using? On which rack(s) are you placing the fish and where is/are the rack(s) in the smoker? How are you deciding when it is 'done'? Are you opening the door during the smoking process or do you leave it closed the entire time? What species of wood are you using? Are you ending up with lumps of charcoal in your smoke box or are you getting ashes? (Ashes will indicate the wood caught on fire and burned up. There is ongoing speculation, debate, and research on whether it matters if you get charcoal or ashes, but there are some who say they get a bitter taste when they end up with ashes.)
On a less academic note, I want to acknowledge your current disappointment and frustration. You no doubt formed an opinion of what to expect from your SI and your expectations haven't been met. Reading between the lines I'm guessing you also were already debating whether to get an SI or a Pit Boss and weren't sure you made the correct choice even before you've encountered these setbacks. Hang in there... The SI's can make some really awesome smoked food... just keep talking to us and we'll help you figure it out.
LarryD: Thanks so much, I would love the help - I want to love my SI-1
Other possible factors:
I do not pre-heat the smoker; I smoke fish on 200; Top two racks; done in 2hrs - based only on experience; never open the door during the smoke; Used 3 blocks of alder with one block of hickory; 1 block was turned to ash - the other three were charcoal after the smoke
On your less academic note: You must also be a shrink - I was using an old masterbuilt for a year or more till it died. My friend had a pit-boss I borrowed a few times and really liked it. I looked as Electric, Gas, chip, pellet, and on and on and on for a year. After lots of reading and self-debate, I chose the SI-1 with no first hand experience and never having met anyone that had one. and so far, I have trashed a bunch of fish! Sad being all the effort that goes into getting them in the first place. I smoke Salmon, trout (Brown and lake) mostly. I would love to smoke other foods, but need to figure some stuff out first.
Other note: In the Pit boss, I filled the tray with chips, they would burn out in an hour or so, and the fish always came out awesome. So far, all I have managed whit the SI is to disappoint myself. Hopeful the gap is it is user error and not the SI.
To all: The best part of the SI experience so far is this forum - thanks to all who chipped in!
Other possible factors:
I do not pre-heat the smoker; I smoke fish on 200; Top two racks; done in 2hrs - based only on experience; never open the door during the smoke; Used 3 blocks of alder with one block of hickory; 1 block was turned to ash - the other three were charcoal after the smoke
On your less academic note: You must also be a shrink - I was using an old masterbuilt for a year or more till it died. My friend had a pit-boss I borrowed a few times and really liked it. I looked as Electric, Gas, chip, pellet, and on and on and on for a year. After lots of reading and self-debate, I chose the SI-1 with no first hand experience and never having met anyone that had one. and so far, I have trashed a bunch of fish! Sad being all the effort that goes into getting them in the first place. I smoke Salmon, trout (Brown and lake) mostly. I would love to smoke other foods, but need to figure some stuff out first.
Other note: In the Pit boss, I filled the tray with chips, they would burn out in an hour or so, and the fish always came out awesome. So far, all I have managed whit the SI is to disappoint myself. Hopeful the gap is it is user error and not the SI.
To all: The best part of the SI experience so far is this forum - thanks to all who chipped in!
As a professional computer geek I like to tightly control variables and not change more than one thing at a time if I can help it. At the same time, I don't want to have you keep turning good fish into trash fish. 
So... if it were me, I'd do the following steps one at a time and evaluate each of the results.
1. As already determined, use less wood. Alder sounds like a common choice for fish. Hickory has a stronger flavor and I wouldn't start out recommending it. However, I'm assuming you've successfully smoked with this combo in the past and know that you like it, so carry on.
2. Join the great experiment and see if preventing your wood from catching fire will resolve the bitter flavor. One of my first three smokes resulted in the wood getting burned up and turned to ash. That also spiked the temperature in the smoker. At the time I wasn't really paying attention to know what impact it had on the product... I don't even remember what I smoked. Regardless, I was alarmed, read some posts here, and took action that has resulted in nothing but charcoal post-smoke since. I simply line the bottom of the smoke box with a double layer of thick aluminum foil and poke smaller holes where the existing holes are. I like a very strong smoke flavor and often use more wood than recommended, but I don't recall ever getting a bitter flavor as a result. I'm also a black-coffee drinker and an omnivore, so maybe I just don't have a refined palette.
3. Maybe lower the temp a little? I'm thinking 175ish. I suggest this with some hesitation because I don't have a solid explanation for why beyond reviewing some old posts suggesting it for fish.
Everything else you're doing sounds perfectly reasonable and normal. Keep us posted... I'm really anxious to hear about your future success!
So... if it were me, I'd do the following steps one at a time and evaluate each of the results.1. As already determined, use less wood. Alder sounds like a common choice for fish. Hickory has a stronger flavor and I wouldn't start out recommending it. However, I'm assuming you've successfully smoked with this combo in the past and know that you like it, so carry on.
2. Join the great experiment and see if preventing your wood from catching fire will resolve the bitter flavor. One of my first three smokes resulted in the wood getting burned up and turned to ash. That also spiked the temperature in the smoker. At the time I wasn't really paying attention to know what impact it had on the product... I don't even remember what I smoked. Regardless, I was alarmed, read some posts here, and took action that has resulted in nothing but charcoal post-smoke since. I simply line the bottom of the smoke box with a double layer of thick aluminum foil and poke smaller holes where the existing holes are. I like a very strong smoke flavor and often use more wood than recommended, but I don't recall ever getting a bitter flavor as a result. I'm also a black-coffee drinker and an omnivore, so maybe I just don't have a refined palette.
3. Maybe lower the temp a little? I'm thinking 175ish. I suggest this with some hesitation because I don't have a solid explanation for why beyond reviewing some old posts suggesting it for fish.
Everything else you're doing sounds perfectly reasonable and normal. Keep us posted... I'm really anxious to hear about your future success!
LarryD,
Thanks again - Before I run test #1, do you ever use a probe to tell you the temp in the box? And, do you use the flavor pan? I was thinking the flavor pan, even if filled with just water, may act as a heat sink and help stabilize the internal temps. Any thoughts on these subjects?
Regarding the temp, 175 as you state, seems correct. 200 just happened to be what worked in my old smoker, but truth be told, I never measured it to know for sure what it was
Thanks again - Before I run test #1, do you ever use a probe to tell you the temp in the box? And, do you use the flavor pan? I was thinking the flavor pan, even if filled with just water, may act as a heat sink and help stabilize the internal temps. Any thoughts on these subjects?
Regarding the temp, 175 as you state, seems correct. 200 just happened to be what worked in my old smoker, but truth be told, I never measured it to know for sure what it was
No, I never measure the box temp.... I did that one time early on and freaked myself out for no good reason. The analog smokers have a pretty wide temperature swing. My #2 was +/- 40 degrees. I suspect the #1 would be a little less due to its smaller size, but I have no objective information to verify that.
I generally only put water in my smoker when I'm doing longer smokes such as brisket. When I do, I place it directly next to the fire box and not on a rack. All I can say is add it as test number 4, give it a try, and let us know how it works out. I'm going to guess that it either won't work or be a slight detriment.
The analog smokers have a pretty wide temperature swing. My #2 was +/- 40 degrees. I suspect the #1 would be a little less due to its smaller size, but I have no objective information to verify that.I generally only put water in my smoker when I'm doing longer smokes such as brisket. When I do, I place it directly next to the fire box and not on a rack. All I can say is add it as test number 4, give it a try, and let us know how it works out.
I'm going to guess that it either won't work or be a slight detriment.
Lonzinomaker
Member
I did about 25# salmon last summer. Used alder with a little hickory ONCE, didn't like the harsh flavor. Since then have only used 1.5-2 oz of chunk alder and only put enough in to get smoke for 2 hours. I also keep the temp down to 150-160 and pull the salmon as soon as it hits 120-130 (checking texture to not overcook). I have a "Smoke" wireless 2 probe thermometer from Thermoworks. Put one probe in a thick portion of the fish and the other on a rack stand.
I also made small trays out of aluminum flashing to fit in the wood box, always have charcoal now, no ashes.
I also made small trays out of aluminum flashing to fit in the wood box, always have charcoal now, no ashes.
All - Have I got this correct? 2oz of wood? my scale came today - each chunk is about 3.5oz. I used 4 chunks. that would be 14oz. I used to use an entire tray of chips - can a little tiny 2 oz block really be enough? i am going to try, but will be shocked if it works. If that is the case, I have enough wood for 3 years!
Lonzinomaker
Member
You have it right. You didn't use to have a Smokin-It. Smokin-Its don't have a high rate of air exchange, so smoke stays in the smoker. That's why you need a fan like the "James Jerky Dryer" to get a higher air exchange rate when doing jerky to get the meat dry out. And the low air exchange rate is why you don't need to add a pan of water when doing pork butts or ribs or fish. Those 2-3 chunks of wood burn a 3-4 hours in the Smokin-it. The same amount of wood in my MES would last about 20-30 min.
Besides a scale, I invested in a nice forged Estwing hatchet with leather wrapped handle (my Xmas present to myself) to split those bigger chunks of wood easily.
Besides a scale, I invested in a nice forged Estwing hatchet with leather wrapped handle (my Xmas present to myself) to split those bigger chunks of wood easily.
To all that helped - Sorry for the long delay - so a few more experiments. I am amazed at how little wood the SI uses. A 2 oz block is more smoke flavor that an entire bag of chips cold create in my old Home Depot special! I am also surprised that it will smoke at such low temps. I used to have to go to 210 to get the chips going and then lower the temp.
200 - 14oz of wood - 2hr - a great way to ruin hard fought salmon...sad day
200 - 2oz - 2hr - Still much darker that I have ever seen in my old smoker, a bit dry, AWESOME flavor
175 - 1.5oz - 2hr - Now we are getting somewhere! Still dark, but cant stop eating it!
Thanks for all the help!
Now I will move on to master jerky, Lox, and some brisket! I think I will go smoke some s--- this weekend!
Thanks again all!
200 - 14oz of wood - 2hr - a great way to ruin hard fought salmon...sad day
200 - 2oz - 2hr - Still much darker that I have ever seen in my old smoker, a bit dry, AWESOME flavor
175 - 1.5oz - 2hr - Now we are getting somewhere! Still dark, but cant stop eating it!
Thanks for all the help!
Now I will move on to master jerky, Lox, and some brisket! I think I will go smoke some s--- this weekend!
Thanks again all!
SI users - My fish is great now - almost every time - 1.5oz - 2oz for 2 hrs @ 175.
But...... The smoke flavor is just not as strong as my old electric smoker. Many in my circle say the new recipe is better, but I liked the heavy smoke flavor. I have used wet brine and dry brine and always let the fish sit at room temp for 3-5 hrs before smoking. the SI smokes the entire time after about the first 10 min. I put the fish into the SI cold and leave the door sealed for the full smoke. I am wondering is the fact that there is alot less air movement in the SI than in a pit boss, it reduces the smoke / meat contact times?
Any thoughts?
But...... The smoke flavor is just not as strong as my old electric smoker. Many in my circle say the new recipe is better, but I liked the heavy smoke flavor. I have used wet brine and dry brine and always let the fish sit at room temp for 3-5 hrs before smoking. the SI smokes the entire time after about the first 10 min. I put the fish into the SI cold and leave the door sealed for the full smoke. I am wondering is the fact that there is alot less air movement in the SI than in a pit boss, it reduces the smoke / meat contact times?
Any thoughts?
