Smokin-It User Forum!
User Guidelines and Instructions => Guide to Smoking Times, Temps, Woods => Topic started by: mertzer13 on April 07, 2019, 09:19:54 PM
-
Hi all - Need help.. I smoke alot of fish - Have a classic dry brine (mostly sugar and salt) I have used for years. I has a masterbuilt electric smoker I used for years that died. Always used 1 tray of chips. Love the fish and always came out good. decided to get a model 1 for my next smoker. So far, I have ruined several fish! I am using chunks from Smokenlicious. I tried 4 chunks and 3 chunks. The fish is nearly black and very bitter. I am so disappointed so far. I may get a new pit boss. I must be doing something wrong. Try chips again? 1 chunk or 2? Please help - My favorite smoked fish is quickly becoming a memory of the past!!
-
I believe you are using way too much wood.. I have smoked fish using the maple or cherry from Smokin-liscious and have had good results.. Attached is a document that is on-this site to give you recommendations on smoke time and amount of wood. I only use 2-3oz's of wood on fish and some of the larger chunks (fillets) of wood are about this size. I always weigh my wood to confirm the exact amount.. Good luck on your next attempt..
-
You need to get a digital scale, maybe from amazon or eBay. The wood needs to be weighed...it doesn't take much.
-
As others have mentioned, using wat too much wood.
-
Try one chunk. Maybe even a half chunk. These smokers are very efficient.
-
All - Seems unanimous - Too much wood! seemed like the same volume as a tray of chips - newbie to SI Model 1 I guess. I will buy a scale, significantly cut back on wood and re-post results! Thanks all
-
But this time with one piece of fish! I am going to make a fish spread with the last batch as I cant eat it like it is - Put more time and money into it before I toss it! Thanks again!
-
All - Seems unanimous - Too much wood! seemed like the same volume as a tray of chips - newbie to SI Model 1 I guess. I will buy a scale, significantly cut back on wood and re-post results! Thanks all
It's counter-intuitive how little wood the Smokin-Its need and it's a pretty solid finding that when the result is bitter that it's too much wood. For some fish you wouldn't need more than an ounce of wood. If you don't have a scale then think of children's wooden alphabet blocks as a guide. You need no more than 1/2 to 1 alphabet block of wood for your fish.
Just in case there are other factors, would you like to tell us more about your overall process? Are you pre-heating the smoker? What temperature are you using? On which rack(s) are you placing the fish and where is/are the rack(s) in the smoker? How are you deciding when it is 'done'? Are you opening the door during the smoking process or do you leave it closed the entire time? What species of wood are you using? Are you ending up with lumps of charcoal in your smoke box or are you getting ashes? (Ashes will indicate the wood caught on fire and burned up. There is ongoing speculation, debate, and research on whether it matters if you get charcoal or ashes, but there are some who say they get a bitter taste when they end up with ashes.)
On a less academic note, I want to acknowledge your current disappointment and frustration. You no doubt formed an opinion of what to expect from your SI and your expectations haven't been met. Reading between the lines I'm guessing you also were already debating whether to get an SI or a Pit Boss and weren't sure you made the correct choice even before you've encountered these setbacks. Hang in there... The SI's can make some really awesome smoked food... just keep talking to us and we'll help you figure it out.
-
LarryD: Thanks so much, I would love the help - I want to love my SI-1
Other possible factors:
I do not pre-heat the smoker; I smoke fish on 200; Top two racks; done in 2hrs - based only on experience; never open the door during the smoke; Used 3 blocks of alder with one block of hickory; 1 block was turned to ash - the other three were charcoal after the smoke
On your less academic note: You must also be a shrink - I was using an old masterbuilt for a year or more till it died. My friend had a pit-boss I borrowed a few times and really liked it. I looked as Electric, Gas, chip, pellet, and on and on and on for a year. After lots of reading and self-debate, I chose the SI-1 with no first hand experience and never having met anyone that had one. and so far, I have trashed a bunch of fish! Sad being all the effort that goes into getting them in the first place. I smoke Salmon, trout (Brown and lake) mostly. I would love to smoke other foods, but need to figure some stuff out first.
Other note: In the Pit boss, I filled the tray with chips, they would burn out in an hour or so, and the fish always came out awesome. So far, all I have managed whit the SI is to disappoint myself. Hopeful the gap is it is user error and not the SI.
To all: The best part of the SI experience so far is this forum - thanks to all who chipped in!
-
As a professional computer geek I like to tightly control variables and not change more than one thing at a time if I can help it. At the same time, I don't want to have you keep turning good fish into trash fish. :) So... if it were me, I'd do the following steps one at a time and evaluate each of the results.
1. As already determined, use less wood. Alder sounds like a common choice for fish. Hickory has a stronger flavor and I wouldn't start out recommending it. However, I'm assuming you've successfully smoked with this combo in the past and know that you like it, so carry on. :)
2. Join the great experiment and see if preventing your wood from catching fire will resolve the bitter flavor. One of my first three smokes resulted in the wood getting burned up and turned to ash. That also spiked the temperature in the smoker. At the time I wasn't really paying attention to know what impact it had on the product... I don't even remember what I smoked. Regardless, I was alarmed, read some posts here, and took action that has resulted in nothing but charcoal post-smoke since. I simply line the bottom of the smoke box with a double layer of thick aluminum foil and poke smaller holes where the existing holes are. I like a very strong smoke flavor and often use more wood than recommended, but I don't recall ever getting a bitter flavor as a result. I'm also a black-coffee drinker and an omnivore, so maybe I just don't have a refined palette. :)
3. Maybe lower the temp a little? I'm thinking 175ish. I suggest this with some hesitation because I don't have a solid explanation for why beyond reviewing some old posts suggesting it for fish.
Everything else you're doing sounds perfectly reasonable and normal. Keep us posted... I'm really anxious to hear about your future success!
-
LarryD,
Thanks again - Before I run test #1, do you ever use a probe to tell you the temp in the box? And, do you use the flavor pan? I was thinking the flavor pan, even if filled with just water, may act as a heat sink and help stabilize the internal temps. Any thoughts on these subjects?
Regarding the temp, 175 as you state, seems correct. 200 just happened to be what worked in my old smoker, but truth be told, I never measured it to know for sure what it was
-
No, I never measure the box temp.... I did that one time early on and freaked myself out for no good reason. :) The analog smokers have a pretty wide temperature swing. My #2 was +/- 40 degrees. I suspect the #1 would be a little less due to its smaller size, but I have no objective information to verify that.
I generally only put water in my smoker when I'm doing longer smokes such as brisket. When I do, I place it directly next to the fire box and not on a rack. All I can say is add it as test number 4, give it a try, and let us know how it works out. :) I'm going to guess that it either won't work or be a slight detriment.
-
I did about 25# salmon last summer. Used alder with a little hickory ONCE, didn't like the harsh flavor. Since then have only used 1.5-2 oz of chunk alder and only put enough in to get smoke for 2 hours. I also keep the temp down to 150-160 and pull the salmon as soon as it hits 120-130 (checking texture to not overcook). I have a "Smoke" wireless 2 probe thermometer from Thermoworks. Put one probe in a thick portion of the fish and the other on a rack stand.
I also made small trays out of aluminum flashing to fit in the wood box, always have charcoal now, no ashes.
-
All - Have I got this correct? 2oz of wood? my scale came today - each chunk is about 3.5oz. I used 4 chunks. that would be 14oz. I used to use an entire tray of chips - can a little tiny 2 oz block really be enough? i am going to try, but will be shocked if it works. If that is the case, I have enough wood for 3 years!
-
All - Have I got this correct? 2oz of wood? my scale came today - each chunk is about 3.5oz. I used 4 chunks. that would be 14oz. I used to use an entire tray of chips - can a little tiny 2 oz block really be enough? i am going to try, but will be shocked if it works. If that is the case, I have enough wood for 3 years!
I would say that 2oz is the absolute most you'd want to use. You may find that 1 oz is plenty. Yes, wood lasts for a very long time with these smokers. :)
-
You have it right. You didn't use to have a Smokin-It. Smokin-Its don't have a high rate of air exchange, so smoke stays in the smoker. That's why you need a fan like the "James Jerky Dryer" to get a higher air exchange rate when doing jerky to get the meat dry out. And the low air exchange rate is why you don't need to add a pan of water when doing pork butts or ribs or fish. Those 2-3 chunks of wood burn a 3-4 hours in the Smokin-it. The same amount of wood in my MES would last about 20-30 min.
Besides a scale, I invested in a nice forged Estwing hatchet with leather wrapped handle (my Xmas present to myself) to split those bigger chunks of wood easily.
-
Lonzinomaker, I like the tip about the aluminum flashing pans for the firebox. I mus try that.
-
To all that helped - Sorry for the long delay - so a few more experiments. I am amazed at how little wood the SI uses. A 2 oz block is more smoke flavor that an entire bag of chips cold create in my old Home Depot special! I am also surprised that it will smoke at such low temps. I used to have to go to 210 to get the chips going and then lower the temp.
200 - 14oz of wood - 2hr - a great way to ruin hard fought salmon...sad day
200 - 2oz - 2hr - Still much darker that I have ever seen in my old smoker, a bit dry, AWESOME flavor
175 - 1.5oz - 2hr - Now we are getting somewhere! Still dark, but cant stop eating it!
Thanks for all the help!
Now I will move on to master jerky, Lox, and some brisket! I think I will go smoke some s--- this weekend!
Thanks again all!
-
Thank you so much for sharing your success story with us! We're an empathetic bunch, so we're sad when you're sad and we're happy when you're happy. :)
-
SI users - My fish is great now - almost every time - 1.5oz - 2oz for 2 hrs @ 175.
But...... The smoke flavor is just not as strong as my old electric smoker. Many in my circle say the new recipe is better, but I liked the heavy smoke flavor. I have used wet brine and dry brine and always let the fish sit at room temp for 3-5 hrs before smoking. the SI smokes the entire time after about the first 10 min. I put the fish into the SI cold and leave the door sealed for the full smoke. I am wondering is the fact that there is alot less air movement in the SI than in a pit boss, it reduces the smoke / meat contact times?
Any thoughts?
-
Try different woods.
-
Mertzer13 - You make an interesting point about less air movement and smokiness. My last 2 smokers were modified for lots of air movement with both smoke and moisture. Early on I thought of doing the same mods to my #3 (shame on me) but I'm glad I controlled myself because the other side of the coin is my ribs turn out unbelievable. My fish on the other hand still needs work. My last smoke was at 175deg for 4 hrs, IT temp of my fish was 160. The end results was the fish was still a bit wet for my liking. I judge this based on how flaky the results are. My last batch was 4 large fillets with skin on but maybe I should have broken them down to smaller pieces (others disagree). I am curious if after 2 hours (I believe that's what you posted) is the fish flaky? Thank you for all the sharing in this post. - Tom
-
I like the very mild flavor Alder gives, so that is what I use. You could try adding one oz of apple or cherry in addition to the alder for a stronger smoke flavor.
-
Mertzer13 - You make an interesting point about less air movement and smokiness. My last 2 smokers were modified for lots of air movement with both smoke and moisture. Early on I thought of doing the same mods to my #3 (shame on me) but I'm glad I controlled myself because the other side of the coin is my ribs turn out unbelievable. My fish on the other hand still needs work. My last smoke was at 175deg for 4 hrs, IT temp of my fish was 160. The end results was the fish was still a bit wet for my liking. I judge this based on how flaky the results are. My last batch was 4 large fillets with skin on but maybe I should have broken them down to smaller pieces (others disagree). I am curious if after 2 hours (I believe that's what you posted) is the fish flaky? Thank you for all the sharing in this post. - Tom
Tom - So as time has passed, my fish improves - currently using a dry rub (Salt and sugar mostly), 12-24 hrs depending on thickness. Smaller pieces seem better than larger ones, I use about 1oz of Alder and 1 oz of Hickory. I smoke at 175 for 2 hrs. Thin pieces (Like a tail filet) come out dry, thicker pieces are moist, all is flaky. Most tell me Hickory is too harsh for fish, but I like the smoke flavor. also, time in the brine seems very key. too long and they get more and more salty.
So tell me how you do ribs, that is my next experiment!
-
This thread is such a testament to the SI forum. Mertzer13 contacted the forum with his bad experiences. And the team all jumped in to provide some helpful guidance -some really good guidance. But now I notice that he is providing valuable feedback and updates to the forum via his experimentation. The forum is one of the strengths of the SI success, and definitely the deciding factor for me to buy my SI.
Mertzer13, about that rib question. I would recommend using the search function for "Ribs". Take notes and save bookmarks as there will be a few hours of reading there. You will find 2 main camps There are some who swear by the 5 hours in "no peek" method. Other prefer variations of the 3-2-1 method where you wrap them part of the way through. I have done both, and prefer the latter. The wrapping keeps them more moist and will make them more of a fall off the bone tender. The "no peek" provide great flavor, but aligns with what the competition judges like - just a bit of a bite or chew. If you spend a little time reading though, you will turn out really good ribs on your first time out.
I am getting hungry for ribs now.
-
Mertzer13 – My fish has improved. In comparison I’ve only ever used a wet brine for 5-6 hrs. Now I’m smoking at 175deg using 1.7 oz of chips (hickory & pecan) for 4 hrs. On my last smoke I tried to start off at approx 140 deg with the intent to slowly raise it to 175. I ran into a problem where the chips wouldn’t ignite so in my last hour I turned to a pellet tube with a mix of pellets (hickory/apple) and it surprisingly turned out great. All of my smokes this spring have been bluefish fillets with skin on (12-14” long) so I suspect it takes longer to get to the point of flakiness I look for.
For my ribs I use the “no peek” method. Since I like nearly fall off the bone I usually go a bit longer than 5 hrs. I set the smoker to approx 235 deg., I use 3.25oz of wood chunks (apple/hickory/cherry). I don’t remove the back membrane and use Jeff’s rub with a yellow mustard base. The last few times I’ve made ribs I’ve added a shelf of 15 or so wings placed under the ribs. I used a bit less wood (approx 2.75 oz) and pulled the wings after 2 hrs. Once the ribs are done I put the wings on the grill for a few minutes to reheat and crisp the skin. Then I lightly sauce. My family and guests like them quite a bit.
-
TOM - Not to turn the OP from bitter flavor to brine recipes - but we digress.... I smoke almost exclusively Salmon (some trout). I have tried dry and wet brine. Love both from a flavor standpoint, with wet brine I can get more garlic and onion flavors. but.... Almost always a wet brine will turn out more moist all things being the same. The dry brine, sucks alot (Like a real lot) of moisture out of the fish in the brine process. I mix 2C brown sugar, 1.25C tender quick salt, then whatever else I am in the mood for (Celery salt/ Onion power/ pepper / garlic). Let it sit 24hrs - the amount of water is sucks out of this fish will shock you, and the fish will be dryer when done. For me, its what I like - Dry and smoky. My friends prefer the less smoky and more moist version. but last I knew, I bought the SI, I landed the fish, so I will cook it how I like it! and they still eat it!
-
Mertzer13 - I completely overlooked the dry vs wet brine difference forgetting a gravlox (sp?) test I did years ago....salt and sugar crusted salmon left in the fridge did give up quite a bit of liquid. Big difference starting out for the smoker. Thank you for pointing that out. I should give the dry brine a try to see how salty it turns out....always my concern.
-
Tom,
I would start with less salt - my first recipe called for 50/50. I currently use 1.25C salt to 2C sugar MAX. I have used as little as .75C salt. I "Think" the salt is the cure, so it may last longer with more salt. However, I never seem to have it around long enough to know if that is true. For me 2:1 is just about right, and if they are thinner pieces of fish, I will reduce it to more like .75C and cut the brine time down as well. Good luck!
-
Mertzer13 - Thank you for the recipe. I see you smoke at 175 and you're applying a dry brine for some number of hours presumably in the fridge. If I may ask why use Tender Quick curing salt and not plain Kosher salt? Is bacteria the concern or some flavor or texture preference?
-
Tom,
For me it just came down to taste - and I think the preservative aspects of the nitrates added to the Mortons product is a piece of mind if it sits in the fridge for three days. I think it is actually part sugar too, so it is not truly 1C salt to 2C brown sugar and I felt it tasted a bit better than using kosher salt. I have used both, and the difference is likely not perceivable. I do alot of jerky as well and so I use the tender quick for that and have it in the house.
And...Yes, once I dry brine the fish, it cover it with plastic wrap to keep air out and refrigerate for 12-24h. It seems the longer I cure the saltier the fish gets. 12h for thin pieces and 24 for thicker. Good luck!
-
Got it. Thank you.
-
@mertzer13
One thing you might want to try is equilibrium brining. It makes it impossible to over-salt your meat regardless of how long you leave it in the brine.
Here’s a link about it: http://smokinitforums.com/index.php?topic=1504.0
-
Mertzer13 - Thank you for the recipe. I see you smoke at 175 and you're applying a dry brine for some number of hours presumably in the fridge. If I may ask why use Tender Quick curing salt and not plain Kosher salt? Is bacteria the concern or some flavor or texture preference?
I read somewhere to only use canning/pickling salt. Regular salt has iodine and possibly something else in it which is not good for brining.
I have ordered a #2. Been using a Big Chief for years. My current method for Salmon is:
Slit the skin every 2" and use a 50/50 mix of canning salt and raw sugar plus garlic powder to taste. Brine for 24 hours, rinse, lightly pat with paper towel and let dry on the rack for 1 hour before putting it into the smoker.
I smoke for 1 hour then glaze with a mix of finely chopped ginger and honey (made the night before). Smoke for 1 more hour, add more glaze and then return to the smoker (no new chips) for another 90 minutes.
When I take it out of the smoker I put it in the freezer for rapid cooling (until just warm), then vacuum seal and put in the fridge. Lasts for months with no issues. My family loves it.
One final thought, we often have it straight from the smoker as an entree for supper. If eating it hot, I only brine for 4-6 hours.
Cheers,