Smokin-It User Forum!
Recipes => Brines, Marinades & Injections => Topic started by: jpittssr on October 03, 2014, 03:22:54 PM
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This may be posted in the wrong place. If so please move it.
There has been some discussion about the different curing salts.
I looked everywhere for Morton's Tender Quick to no avail. I did order some Prague #1 which is much stronger,
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Ed, the Tender Quick and Sugar Cure are certainly different animals, compared to the #1 curing salt you ordered. The TQ and SC contain both sodium nitrites and sodium nitrates, in a much-reduced amount. The reason is that they are intended to be used as a dry cure. That is, rub them on the meat, put in a plastic bag, and place in the fridge. They require flipping daily, for several days (depending on what you are curing). The nitrates, in these, convert to nitrites, over time. Prague powder #2 is similar, minus the sugar.
The #1 Prague powder (also know as "Instacure #1) is a higher concentration of sodium nitrite and salt only. A little goes a long way! It is generally used for brines (wet cures), although it can also be used in dry brining.
I, too, have never seen Tender Quick in any local stores, but regularly see the Sugar Cure. I, personally, have never used either. I only do wet brine cures, so I haven't had the need for them. However, I am planning on trying some belly bacon (if I can just FIND some good pork bellies), so I'll be trying dry brining then!
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My basic dry cure is Morton Tender quick (basically)
Basic Dry Cure
1Pound or 450 grams Kosher Salt
8 oz. or 225 Grams Sugar
2 oz. or 50 grams or 10 teaspoons Pink Salt Curing Salt #2
Sugar Cure is tender quick with more sugar. It works the same as if I use the basic cure and toss in maple suryp and brown sugar to bump up the sweetness.
The Morton products can be purchased online http://morton.elsstore.com/shop/subcatprodx.asp?storeID=118E3132AD8349CDBCB34DF64BCCEBB9&category_id=40892&subcategory_id=40892 but it is cheaper to make the dry cure.
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Yes, regular Morton's Sugar Cure is interchangeable with Tender Quick. Sugar Cure has just a tiny bit more sugar, <1% dextrose and the spice packet.
Morton's Smoke-Flavored Sugar Cure is a very different product (with nitrate, no nitrite) which is only intended for dry-curing.
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This link gives great information on curing salts and nitrites. http://www.takepart.com/article/2014/10/08/cured-meat-nitrites-cancer?cmpid=foodinc-fb
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I ordered pink salt #1 - Prague cure, on Amazon and tried some on turkey legs. It tasted just plain lousy even though it was part of a Disney turkey leg brine recipe I found on line. I did not know what it was until I looked on the package and saw it was 100% sodium nitrite. I know it's in lots of things I eat but I just don't want to use it in my cooking. I threw the whole package in the garbage. Not for me!
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Better to throw the package in the garbage than to kill yourself. Too much nitrite will kill you, although not using it when you should can also kill you. It would be better to understand the product and application and avoid the whole dieing setback. Curing salts are an ingredient in recipes not a special flavoring. You don't season meat with sodium nitrite you cure with it. Here is another simplified explanation http://culinaryarts.about.com/od/seasoningflavoring/a/nitrates.htm
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What scared me the most was that in big letters on the package it said and I quote " THIS PRODUCT IS TOXIC". No question that it has its uses and is used everywhere but seeing that was to much for me to handle in my cooking hobby.
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Barrel99,
Do you happen to have a link to that specific product on Amazon?
Thanks!
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Arnie, If your product was indeed "100%" sodium nitrite, it's no wonder you thought it was terrible! The Instacure #1 I use is only 6.25% sodium nitrite, and it takes very little in a wet brine to have a big effect!
How did you use it, and how much did you use?
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According to the description on Amazon it says 6.25%. But the only ingredient I remember on the package was sodium nitrite. That's why I said 100%. So it might be the 6.25 but not identified on the package as I remember it.
Here is the link for the Prague powder:
http://www.amazon.com/Hoosier-Hill-Farm-Prague-Powder/dp/B008NH7AUA/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&qid=1415935048&sr=8-6&keywords=prague+salt
Here are the ingredients from the brine used for the turkey legs to give you an idea what was used.
Ingredients
2 large turkey drumsticks
4 teaspoons Morton's kosher salt
1 teaspoon Prague powder #1
3 tablespoons dark brown sugar
1 cup warm water
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If your product was indeed "100%" sodium nitrite, it's no wonder you thought it was terrible! The Instacure #1 I use is only 6.25% sodium nitrite
100% Instacure = 6.25% Nitrite + 93.75% Sodium (Salt)
Nitrite AND Sodium make Sodium Nitrite (instarure)
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If your product was indeed "100%" sodium nitrite, it's no wonder you thought it was terrible! The Instacure #1 I use is only 6.25% sodium nitrite
100% Instacure = 6.25% Nitrite + 93.75% Sodium (Salt)
Nitrite AND Sodium make Sodium Nitrite (instarure)
Thanks for the clarification on that, Brian - you're absolutely right! I read his post like it was 100% nitrite! :-[
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According to the description on Amazon it says 6.25%. But the only ingredient I remember on the package was sodium nitrite. That's why I said 100%. So it might be the 6.25 but not identified on the package as I remember it.
Here is the link for the Prague powder:
http://www.amazon.com/Hoosier-Hill-Farm-Prague-Powder/dp/B008NH7AUA/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&qid=1415935048&sr=8-6&keywords=prague+salt (http://www.amazon.com/Hoosier-Hill-Farm-Prague-Powder/dp/B008NH7AUA/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&qid=1415935048&sr=8-6&keywords=prague+salt)
Here are the ingredients from the brine used for the turkey legs to give you an idea what was used.
Ingredients
2 large turkey drumsticks
4 teaspoons Morton's kosher salt
1 teaspoon Prague powder #1
3 tablespoons dark brown sugar
1 cup warm water
I see your problem. That is a VERY large concentration of #1 for such a small amount of brine! When I use it in my pork butt or loin brine, it's in a gallon of water, NOT 1 cup! Not sure where you got that recipe, but if you are wanting curing salt in your turkey leg brine, you need to make a larger amount of brine. I, personally, don't use Instacure on poultry.
Here's a poultry brine I use, and have good luck with:
http://smokinitforums.com/index.php?topic=1447.0
It's OK to mix a gallon of brine, even for a small amount of meat. It makes the ratios so much easier to gauge. Let me put this in perspective:
If I added #1 Instacure to my brine, in the ratio you have above, I would have to add 5 1/3 Tbsp.! That's 16 times the amount I actually use! Like I said before - a LITTLE of this goes a LONG way! Too bad you threw away the bag you bought; it's a great tool in the BBQ tool box, but only if used properly.
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I was so turned off by the "toxic" statement I would have dumped it anyway.
Here's the full recipe link.
http://amazingribs.com/recipes/chicken_turkey_duck/disney_smoked_turkey_legs.html
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I was so turned off by the "toxic" statement I would have dumped it anyway.
Here's the full recipe link.
http://amazingribs.com/recipes/chicken_turkey_duck/disney_smoked_turkey_legs.html (http://amazingribs.com/recipes/chicken_turkey_duck/disney_smoked_turkey_legs.html)
Don't be turned-off by "toxic." Curing salt is a vital part of cured meat, and prevents things like botulism from forming! If you eat ham, Canadian bacon, bacon, sausage, etc..., it is cured with this! There are many things we eat that are "toxic," in large doses. The key is having the right amount so it's NOT toxic!
Here's what I mean: Water is "toxic," if consumed in a large dose, over a short period of time. You can actually die from water toxicity. Do you take vitamins? Vitamin A is toxic, if you take too much! What I'm getting at is the FDA has to put the "toxic" label on anything that will harm you in large doses. Are you going to drink 2 gallons of water in an hour? Are you going to take a whole bottle of vitamin A? No! Curing salts are no different! They are totally safe, when used properly!
I am amazed that this recipe was on amazingribs! Meathead is usually really on top of his stuff, but this brine recipe is dangerous!
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Tony, as far as I know, I have never eaten anything in my life that said toxic on the package. Yes many things are toxic, but bacon, water, etc. do not say that on the packages or bottles. I'm not knocking the use of the nitrite in proper fashion, but even the fact that you agree the recipe might be dangerous tells me that for the neophyte like me who has never used such a product that I am better off not messing with it. I wouldn't know a good recipe from a bad one... a safe one from a dangerous one. Remember, I made this recipe and we ate it. I had no idea that this could have affected my family or myself.
It's unfortunate that this was how I was introduced to the nitrites but it just totally turned me off. I am sure for those who use it properly it does a great job.
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That is a pretty strong brine. I wouldn't have used it. I would go with a weaker brine and longer soak.
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So Brian, do you in general use curing salt #2 in stead of #1 when you are making dry rubbed bacon? I am getting ready to try a Black Forest Bacon recipe I am going to modify to fit better health standards. The Germans that I got the recipe from have to get special permission from the EU to make it the traditional way. Go Europe! :o I am looking for the flavor profile more than anything.
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Always use #1 unless a recipe calls for #2. #2 is called for in specialized dry cured sausages that hang for a long time, think of it as time release #1.
My bacon and also my maple Loins use the same dry cured process. I rub the meat in the basic cure of kosher, sugar and #1. The process is a dry cure as the meat is not in a brine.
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I believe #2 is most commonly used in processes that take more than 14 days because of its ability for the nitrates to time release nitrites. I recently used .25% of the protien weight of instacure #2 in both drycures for Breasola & Procuttini.
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I believe #2 is most commonly used in processes that take more than 14 days
You can't believe or guess with this stuff, you have to know. Only pull out the #2 if the recipe calls for it. I have used it once in four years.
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I completely agree Brian. This deduction is part from recipes & part from research. However, I dont get creative with instacure 1 or 2, I follow the recipes. If my recollection is correct, I think it is 4 grams injested (of #2) is enough to kill an average man. Not to be played with!
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#2 is time release #1. I like the definition and I think it differentiates well. Since I'm not a cured sausage making guy, I doubt I'll need any #2.
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About that Disney turkey leg brine being dangerous in terms of nitrite amount.
FWIW, here's how an immersion brine is checked for safety (it's important to remember that only a portion of the cure is absorbed into the meat.)
Weight of the Nitrite x Percentage of Brine Pick-Up x 1,000,000 ÷ Total Weight of the Brine = PPM Nitrite
4 teaspoons Morton's Kosher Salt (19 grams)
1 teaspoon Prague Powder #1 (5 grams)
3 tablespoons Dark Brown Sugar (45 grams)
1 cup Warm Water (237 grams)
Weight of the Nitrite... 5 grams of Cure #1 x 6.25%=.3125 gram Nitrite
Total Weight of the Brine=306 grams
At 10% Pick-Up....
.3125 x 10% x 1,000,000=31250
31250÷306=102 PPM Nitrite
At 15% Pick-Up....
.3125 x 15% x 1,000,000=46875
46875÷306=153 PPM Nitrite
It may not even hit 10% pick-up.
Well within the 200PPM government limit used by many folks as a measure of safety.
HTH
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Thanks for the breakdown, Martin - very informative, as usual!