Auber / Maverick / Confused & Frustrated

[cwshiles]

I have a #3 that I have had for just shy of 3 years.  I had such crazy temp fluctuations when I first bought it that I decided almost immediately that I needed something better than the analog controller.   My smokes were taking far longer than they should have and I was getting +\- 25 degree swings.  Anyhow, so I looked at trying to build a controller, retrofitting a Guru, and then found the Auber.  When I first got the Auber I was probably one of the first 10 to have one.  It seems that the forum membership has really increased and the experience level has jumped substantially.  Even after getting the Auber, the problem I was having was that my meat was now getting over cooked or dried out.  It frustrated me to the point that I stopped using my smoker and Auber for about a year. I broke it out again last year and had the same experience.   Well, I am back again and hoping to get the issues solved. 
Oh, I bypassed my controller back when I first got the Auber.

This week, I read a lot of forum posts and see that the perm probe mount is the way to go.  I called Steve and Auber to see if there was a way to upgrade my older Auber to the newer version for the better probes but alas, that's a no go.   Both Steve and Auber said my only option was to buy a new Auber unit to get the new probes.  I originally bought the Auber from Steve.   I spent some time with Auber and they asked what my current program was (P- 100, I -500, D- 180) which was what the default was because I had not Auto tuned it.  They told me to change it to (P- 120, I- 600, D- 800) because they said that their testing revealed that was the optimal setting for the # 3.  After reading all of the posts on tuning and probe placement I decided to order the old perm mount probe for the Auber. I installed that today in the top back wall position.  I then Auto Tuned it using foil on bottom, on smoke box, and a pan of wet playground sand, and came away with these(P-62, I- 88, D-136) settings.  That seemed off to me so I bumped up the I to 380 to get between where I was and where the Auto tune suggested.  I needed to get Ribs in the smokers for dinner so I could not do another auto tune today.   The Auber ran the program fine but overshot the temps a lot and then settled into the set temp of 235 eventually.  My Maverick was going nuts.  I had the maverick temp probe on the same rack with the ribs and it was reading a good 15 to 25 degrees higher than the Auber.  Is this normal?   This tells me that the meat is cooking way hotter than the Auber probe is reading and managing temps. I plan to run another auto tune tomorrow with sand to see if I can get different results. 

I don't know which device to trust at this point.  My Maverick is usually within 2 degrees of my Auber (with old pid settings and drop in probe) and my iGrill but this smoke it wasn't.  I usually triple probe the meat and the box temp because I have had such bad results.  My smoker looks like a science experiment. With all the posts out there I have read Ifeel like I got a bum Auber or maybe a bad probe or maybe even a bad element in my #3.   

One positive note, the ribs today actually turned out pretty good but I think that's because I foiled after 3 hours, added apple juice, butter, honey and brown sugar.  All the other ribs I have done have been dried out since I added the Auber.  Oh, I also always use a liquid next to the element in all my smokes. 

So, any help, suggestions, guidance would be appreciated.   I really love smoking but this whole unit/ process has soured the experience for me. 

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[SuperDave]

Charlie,
Sorry to hear about all your troubles.  Your auto tune was so far off that I think you need to try that again to get a better reading.  Or, try the suggested set points given to you by Auber.  The over shooting is 100% due to the wrong PID settings.  As for temperatures, once you get the right settings, do a Maverick / Auber probe test with no meat in the smoker.  If your variances between the 2 were with a loaded smoker, meat blockage could explain wide temperature differences.

[cwshiles]

Thanks Dave.  I ran the auto tune again today and ended up,with
P- 100
I- 196
D- 149

The Auber shot way over the programmed temp and stayed above it and that was just on the Auber itself. 

I will probably run an additional couple auto tunes with the same probe and a couple with the drop in probe to see if that's the problem. 

[DivotMaker]

Charlie, first off, good to see you again!

Now, let's see if we can get this solved!  Glad you got the permanent probe; it does take out the variable of probe placement (which can be more of an impact than you might think).  First, let's look at your model of Auber.  I assume it's the WPS-1503CPH?  I've used that model more than any others, and it's actually my favorite (as far as solid performance). 

Your autotune results:  Did you test those results?  You said they seemed off to you, but you are basing that on the numbers Auber gave you as the programming for the integrated PID controller (based on the GPH model, and numbers that I came up with).  I recommend you re-do your autotune, with one program:  C01 225, e01 t, t01  3.0.  Then, write the numbers down, let the smoker completely cool, and run a normal cooking program to test it (still set up for the autotune).  I think you may be trying to over-analyze the numbers.  Personally, I've never had a autotune not work right, and I've done a bunch of them.  Get the numbers, and test the numbers.  Also, add a water pan to the floor of the smoker, up against the smoke box, like during cooking.  It does make a difference.

If you want to test your permanent probe, for accuracy, hold a glass of crushed ice over it and see if it reads 32.  If you want to test it against your Maverick, or other probe, make sure that probe is side-by-side with the wall probe. 

We'll get you up and running!  Let me know what you think about this, or how it goes, and we'll go from there!

[cwshiles]

Hey Tony, thanks, it's good to be back.  The settings originally in the Auber kept it really tight with the DIP.  I did not have a problem with the it keeping temps close. I had a problem with everything drying out and taking too long.  I was just not happy with the results.   The results from the analog controller were very good but my times were ridiculous.  It was taking a lot longer than it should have. 

My original settings did not cause the over shoot so I felt the need to change my settings.  Do my auto tune results look correct to you?  The look pretty off to me compared to what I originally had and what the consensues seems to be. 

I'll keep fiddling with it but this is causing me to question that the Auber was ever right.  You guys seems to have great results and I have followed your steps to emulate those results and have not been happy. 

Is there a way to reset the Auber to factory default settings?

[DivotMaker]

Charlie, your original settings were P=70, I=600, D=150.  From what you're saying, it's not a problem of the Auber holding temps, but of your meat drying out and taking too long, correct?  This may be a problem with your prep and cooking technique.  Please don't be offended, but I'd like to get more into that.

First, do you use a water pan when smoking?  Next, how about going through the preparation steps, and smoking routine you have gone through that yielded dry meat and took too long.  We may be focusing on the wrong problem.  There are prep/smoking techniques that work, and those that might not give the best results.  If your temps are holding steady, it may not be the smoker. 

[cwshiles]

A few clarifying points.  Yes, the temp held at 225 or whatever I wanted but that was with the Drop in Probe.  I can't understand why the temp is overshooting so much now?  The two things that are different are the wall mount probe and the Auto Tune.  The Auto Tune just does not seem to work for me which makes me think there may be an auber issue. Yesterdays autotune, the temp exceeded my program temp of 225 for the entire program.

As for cooking technique, Yes, I always use a water pan.  I use the one that they sell on the site.  I do not have it touch the smoke box.  I keep it about 1 inch from the box as not to block heat and smoke flow.

Other items....  I have brined pork butts, chickens, geese.  I don't brine ribs.  I do not believe that you need to brine everything.  I have done it but did not see a huge difference in the butts.  Actually the first butt I did was with the analog controller and although it took 6 hours longer than it should have, it was fantastic.  That experience is what made me add the auber to get my cook temps tighter and times more predictible.   One of my good friends was just on Diners Drive ins and Dives (I was on there too) and he has a Cookshack with a digital controller.  He doesn't brine, doesnt inject, just rubs and cooks and has won best BBQ Food Truck in Baltimore several times.  I have mimicked him, mimicked you Tony, and others on the forum too but have not loved the result.   

I do believe that there is a problem with the smoker or the auber.  If the Auber is reading lower temps than are actually occurring in the box, it will cause the element to continue to heat when it shouldn't.  I am leaning towards an auber issue.  The fact that my autotune results are so different that concerns me because it means that either the auber controller is off or something in the cooking environment is off. 

I did not get a chance to do the autotune with the DIP yet to see what happens.

Thanks for the help.

Happy Masters Week.

[DivotMaker]

Charlie, I don't know what to tell you - trying to digest this!  It may be an issue with your Auber, but hard to say.  Curious - did you try the 120/600/800 setting that Auber gave you, or did you just go straight to the autotune?  Might be worth a shot, if you didn't.

Water pan above the smoke box:  I know the "flavor saver" box has hooks, but I strongly discourage anything between the meat and the heat.  I know it's not very big, compared to a #3 rack, but you'll get the best moisture by setting it on the floor, right up against the smoke box.  It will do less to block/channel heat than when it's above.  Minor issue, but you'll find that's pretty much the universal consensus around here.  Are you using any other drip pan below your meat?

Regarding brining:  I agree that you certainly don't have to brine everything, or anything, for that matter!  Personally, I find the difference in butts, loins and poultry well-worth the effort.  But, many folks are plenty happy with the un-brined results.  Is what it is, and a matter of choice.

I think you should test your element by undoing your bypass, and check the temps with the stock controller.  Set up the smoker with your heat sink (not empty), run it at 225, and 250, and monitor the temp swings.  Those swings actually average-out to your set temp, and we have all produced some great BBQ with those "swings!"  By the way, your friend's Cookshack, with the "digital" controller, works the same way.  It is not a PID controller, and has the same temp swings as your stock controller...it just displays the set temps digitally.  We have a CS test, by an owner, that proved that. 

After testing that your element, indeed, heats the box properly, it'll be time to run a few tests on the Auber.  If you'll humor me with the stock controller/element test, I bet we can figure this out.  It's a process of elimination!

[cwshiles]

I did not try the Auber suggested settings because they were so far away from the autotune settings of the others in the forum.  Also, based on the statements that the forum members have made regarding the auber guys being engineers and not BBQ guys.  I can try that setting but I did go right to autotune because that was the suggested route of the forum. 

The water pan is not above the smoke box.  It is next to it on the floor.  I do not use the hooks, I just sit it next to the element but I dont make it touch.  I do not think there would be much difference whether its touching or an inch away but I can certainly try it. 

Yes, I know the cookshack is not a PID, but my point was that its a similar cooking environment so I get advice from him and advice from our forum.  My other point on the swings was that if you know thats going to happen, its fine.  I think I mentioned. The best pork butt I made was with the stock controller so the swings can produce good BBQ, but it makes it hard to predict finish times and I had a few missed dinners because of it. 

Ill unhook my bypass at some point.  Maybe that will be time look at putting in a switch.

I just ran an autotune with the drop in probe and the results were:
P- 35
I- 671
D- 87

This looks a little closer to where it should be however the program did not hold to 225, it was still 5-10 degrees higher even after the AT.

[old sarge]

Charlie - I am the one who ran tests on the Cookshack Amerique temperature that Tony spoke of. Yes, the 'Maverick' was registering one temp, rather quickly while the CS was registering another, much lower and slower. The probe on the CS like the analog SI units is close to the element.  So there has to be something in the CS to manage the temp, maybe in a chip on the board, to average the temp based upon the volume of the smoker (but I do not know that for sure).  Subsequent testing got closer but as Tony said, the CS is not controlled by a PID. If I said I was worried or concerned about my test results, it would be a large understatement. So I locked up the remote.  No point in torturing myself. On the analog SI, the FAQ section says swings can vary 30 degrees plus or minus of your set temp so your 25 degree variance is/was ok and within specs.

In my CS I smoked a lot of butts, and all roughly the same weight. Times to the same IT were from 12 to 16 hours.  No two alike.  Did I have the probe in a fat pocket that melted away and created a void?  I don't know so I can see your frustration. Been there myself so I smoke early and if I have to hold it over longer than expected, that is what I had to do. Sometimes the smoke was done closer to my planned time.

I have to agree with Tony on "undoing" your work. You might find a loose connection or something in the process.  And running it stock to begin eliminating causes and/or verifying proper stock operation. Something rarely mentioned is the bulb and capillary control; that thin 'wire' running from the temp bulb to the controller transports fluid that causes the controller to switch on and off.  Any kinks will impede the fluid and really mess up the temp. I am assuming you are aware of all this but wanted to help if I could.

I noticed on my 3D one evening that the heating element was cherry red from one end to the other. Just tinkering around. I did this just to determine optimum wood placement in the box.

If the stock controller gives good results, then I would forgo the Auber and go by instinct on time for things like ribs and use a quality remote for IT on butts and other large cuts. 

I wish you luck in resolving this. - Dave

[cwshiles]

Thanks Dave,  Ill disassemble and see if that helps.  I did not know what about the bulb and capillary control.  Ill disassemble and see what I can find. 

[old sarge]

The opening paragraphs at the top explains how this works.  As for the rest of the pages, interesting reading. Of course, each controller can be configured differently but the principle remains the same.  Hope it helps.  Steve has replacement controller assemblies if you need one. They are not expensive if you are out of warranty.

http://www.tempco.com/Catalog/Section%2013-pdf/Thermostats.pdf

[cwshiles]

Thank you Dave.  I bypassed the controller.  Wouldn't that cut this problem out of the equation?  I am probably missing something because its been a long time since I did the work.

Can you or someone answer another question for me?  Which wires go between which layers of insulation?  I pulled all of the insulation out to do the wall mount probe.  I have not searched the forum to see if this was out there already so if someone remembers seeing this, please point me in the right direction.

If I am going to take everything back apart, I may end up doing a toggle switch between therm and Auber.   

Thanks,
Charlie

[old sarge]

Charlie - Use the search feature for 'toggle switch'. Plenty of posts and photos. That should be of great help to you - Dave

[DivotMaker]

Charlie, all of the wires should go behind the second layer of insulation, then insert the back layer and install the back panel.