Smokin-It User Forum!
Upgrades and Suggestions! => Upgrades => Topic started by: Limey on January 17, 2015, 11:01:18 AM
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There have been a huge number of posts on whether/how to bypass the controller and the safety issues that may be involved. What if the controller was simply redesigned to go up to 350 degrees. Would this not solve every ones' issues or am I missing something?
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Limey,
I'm with you 100% on the higher max temp and posted early on here but got squashed by the, "we never smoke over 250" guys. But I think the upgrade to the controller issue is really an analog versus digital issue for tighter temp swings. My #4 came with an Auber digital controller and many buy the digital controller at a premium. I think most would like to just pay a little more upfront and get digital controls in the unit. Rumor has it that it is being worked on by SI.
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Dave, I think that philosophically you are exactly right.
However a higher temperature controller would let all the Auber users;
A. avoid having to wire in a bypass
B. negate the need for a switch for the bypass
C. negate the need to rewire the SI and Auber plugs after a bypass so that the SI cannot be plugged in directly and potentially melt down-which I think is a real risk although others disagree
D. negate wiring in a fuseable(meltable) link to prevent the meltdown
Additionally all the non Auber users would be able to get crispy skin on their poultry.
All this for zero incremental cost.
Perhaps we can get Divot to talk to Steve about this.
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I agree guys. I don't normally need to go over 250, but would like the capability to do so for poultry type smokes and the ability to use an Auber without the bypass.
I'm with ya 100%.
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Not sure about the 350 degrees issue but I'm not concerned about the rewiring though. But I will say don't try it if you aren't comfortable doing it.
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Sure, the bypass is not that hard of a thing to do. But with a 350 degree controller, it would not even be necessary. Plug the Smoker into the Auber, the Auber into the outlet, crank the smoker dial to 350, and then program the Auber and let it do its thing. This would eliminate the need for a switch to switch back and forth between the Auber and the analog controller.
I think this is a great suggestion that could be implemented into the smoker as long as Steve could find a capable controller. I wouldn't think it would be too hard to do. But, maybe there is more to this than we are thinking. Because if it were so easy, why hasn't it been implemented already?
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I have an auber and the max temp i have used is 275. The auber in my opinion is more to avoid the temperature swings. You set the smoker at 235' you ride the 235 the entire smoke.
I like the higher temps for poultry.
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A controller that utilizes the max temp of the box makes sense to me.
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Something not considered or mentioned here is the heating element itself. It must be built or configured to handle sustained higher temperatures. This involves a beefed up resistance coil within the the heating element. These smokers were designed to operate within a defined set of parameters, and the controller and element were matched. One would have to replace both, likely at considerable expense. Replacing only the controller which would include the sensing bulb since these are bulb and capillary units might get you a higher temperature, but for how long before you need to replace the element? There are a couple of companies that manufacture elements and controllers, but the combined cost may be very expensive. The smokers work well as designed and adding the Auber give you tighter control over the smoking process. Thus endeth my 3 cents.
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Dave, +1 from me. As a newbie to smoking the cost of the unit is a factor. I would guess that by adding a digital controller or an analogue controller that will control tight enough around 300+ the cost would go up probably. I would guess the added cost would be in the $150 range which will narrow the market and may not be competitive.
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Dave makes a good point about the element being tested for the current controller with the 250 degree limitation. We don't really know whether the element can handle 300-350 reliably long term.
But this being said, are we saying that people with Aubers should not run their smokers higher than 250? And if they do, could it cause premature death of their element?
I am not suggesting a move to a digital controller, but instead just a similar analog controller that goes up to 350. So, the cost should be minimal. I am fine with the analog swings. If you want to remove the swings, get the Auber which has way more options than a digital controller where all it does is maintain a temp. I would much rather see a higher temp analog controller instead of a 250 degree digital controller. But that is just my opinion.
I would be surprised that switching to a 350 controller and/or a different element (if needed) would really increase the manufacturing cost that much (if any). But, I do not have any a ton of evidence of that. We are only talking about 100 degrees, not an element that goes up to 500. I did a quick Bing search and found several heating elements that go up to 450 for under 40 bucks consumer retail priced.
Ultimately, what my feeling on this is that I think it would be nice to have a 350 degree analog thermostat and if the current element is not capable of handling 350 to replace it with one that can.
This is an upgrade and suggestion section of the forum, so I think this thread is all about suggestions for making the product better. My posts in particular are not about suggestions that we could implement in our current generation smokers.
Whether these suggestions are feasible or not will be something for Steve to consider. And maybe it isn't feasible. Only Steve will be able to make that determination for his business.
I already have my current generation smoker and will eventually do the mods like others are doing to add the permanent probe, bypass, switch, and Auber. But how cool would it be for new buyers to be able to get this capability with their brand new smoker without having to pull the back panel off of the smoker and play electrician?
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Roger, your question is a good one, and the guys have certainly provided some great feedback! Here's my 2¢ on what it boils down to:
First, and probably most-important - 250° is the max temp that most consumers will ever use. It's a "safe" temp for the vast majority of home smokers - many of whom don't have any experience smoking meat, until they buy their SI. Along with throttling at 250° to help people not use temps that really aren't appropriate for the majority of smokes, it also prevents wear and tear on the equipment. The experienced enthusiasts can bypass the stock controller, and crank the heat. Steve says the box is rated to 350°. You don't want every new owner cranking it to 350° every time they hit the stall!
Secondly, your question about an analog controller that reaches 350°: I wouldn't think it would be feasible because of the analog temperature swings. Remember, the box is good to 350. Inherently, you are going to have temp swings up to 20-30° above the set point, so the analog controller will take it beyond the safe limits of the box. The Auber can take it to 350°, and NO higher.
Thirdly, what's the real purpose of going higher than 250°? Chicken skin! OK, I get it. But, is that worth sacrificing what I mentioned in the first two points? I wouldn't. Finish on the grill, or the oven, once the smoking is done. Not many folks smoke ribs, butts or briskets at 350°, and that's what most buyers are getting this smoker for.
I believe that Steve, in making a marketing, and liability, decision, has opted for the stock 250° limit because it just makes sense for the vast majority of his consumers. Not many want to push the envelope and break that 250, so it's not worth the time and money to re-tool for the few. Better to have an alternative option for the real enthusiasts who want to break through the ceiling into the higher temps.
When the digital option comes, which is still in the works, it may have the ability to break 250, but that's not decided yet. We'll definitely keep you posted!
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And lastly, it is a smoker, not an oven. Much like a Crock Pot is not a Nesco Roaster Oven despite somewhat similar appearances.
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Well-said, Dave! ;)
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All good points. My suggestions were just that, suggestions for making the smoker more flexible and allow more multi-tasking.
Excellent point that if the box maxes out at 350, and therefore the analog controller going up to 350 would be a bad idea for that reason. So make it 325 then. Issue negated?
I'm not sure I buy the statement that it would be bad to allow higher temps because people will use them incorrectly. That is what instructions and forums like this are for, to help people that do things wrong and offer suggestions that can help their next smoke be better.
I'm also a little dubious that allowing an extra 75 degrees of heat would result in excess "wear and tear".
I guess I am just thinking about this whole thing as adding flexibility and more uses for the smoker. Most people try to reduce the number of uni-taskers in their homes. Why would I want to dirty up my oven or grill just to finish off my meal when it could be done in the same vessel with only one clean-up?
I'll definitely agree that the vast majority of smokes will be less than 250. I guess I just don't see the cons of allowing an extra 75 degrees being all that negative compared to the pros.
If "most" people will never smoke anything over 250, why do the overwhelming majority of Auber users add the bypass? If you don't need to go above 250, adding the bypass is really unnecessary right? Is it because most people don't use an Auber? Well, maybe. I guess I would buy that to a point. But it sure seems like the Auber is really becoming more and more mainstream here than it used to be and I don't remember anyone saying that they are going to use the Auber but skip doing the bypass.
I kind of get the feeling that my suggestions were interpreted as an attack on Steve or his company that needed to be defended. But that could not be further from the truth or how I meant for it to come out anyhow. It feels weird for me to be disagreeing with my mentors (Old Sarge and Divot), but I guess we all have our own opinions right? :)
As anyone who has read any of my posts knows, I am a Smokin-It company-man all the way.
Maybe this isn't a feasible idea or worth doing anything with. If that is the result, I am totally OK with that. I just feel good that it was brought up and we had a healthy discussion on the pros and cons.
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I kind of get the feeling that my suggestions were interpreted as an attack on Steve or his company
I agree and have had the same impression on other topics.
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Sorry to have created so much heat(but also a good deal of light). I suspect that DivotMaker may be correct when he points to the liability issues involved. Also the issue seems to be evolving. Back in October 2013 Johnnytex posted under "Auber PID Tips and Tricks" that-
" I talked to Steve and he said the box and insulation was good to 500 °. The Auber works up to 383 °F. Since the #3 has a1200-watt element, higher temps should not be a problem."
I'm not clear whether the second sentence is Steve or Johnnytex. Incidentally the manual for my Auber(4th gen) states that it can read to 660 and control to 600. Since then Divot has talked to Steve who indicated that the box was good to 350.
My real concern is about all those bypassed Aubers out there without any safety mechanisms in place. Unless you change out the standard 3 pin plug on the SI and replace the female equivalent on the Auber, something I suspect very few have done, then you have a fire waiting to happen. Yes, a sacrificial fuseable(meltable) link will solve the problem, again something few do. No, switches do not solve the problem, nor do statements that "only I use my smoker".
Simply put, if a bypassed SI is plugged directly into the wall socket it will continue to heat until it reaches equilibrium heat or something melts, possibly causing a fire. I do not want to see SIs getting a reputation as fire starters due to unauthorized modifications that some of us do. A 350 or 325 controller is the simplest way round this imo and I have emailed Steve to ask him if he knows of one. Perhaps after taking inventory he will have an opportunity to look at this.
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I'm still new but does Steve participate on this forum? Some of the forums such as this one feel like a black hole without some feedback from the person the threads are directed to.
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No I don't think he does although I think Tony(DivotMaker) acts as a conduit.
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Correction to my previous post- the Auber WSD 1500 GPH can control from a minimum of ambient plus 9 degrees to a maximum of 660 degrees, not 600 degrees as in my previous post, not that maximum is very relevant for us.
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Also the issue seems to be evolving. Back in October 2013 Johnnytex posted under "Auber PID Tips and Tricks" that
"I talked to Steve and he said the box and insulation was good to 500 °. The Auber works up to 383 °F. Since the #3 has a1200-watt element, higher temps should not be a problem."
I'm not clear whether the second sentence is Steve or Johnnytex. Incidentally the manual for my Auber(4th gen) states that it can read to 660 and control to 600. Since then Divot has talked to Steve who indicated that the box was good to 350.
I remember hearing this 500 degree number too. So, am wondering when it lowered down to 350 and why?
It would seem that the more recent mention of 350 from Tony would be more current since he does communicate with Steve. But, did this just change for liability sake? Was the originally reported 500 wrong? Was there new testing that lead to the reduction to 350?
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How about whether the temperature limit applies to all models? By volume and surface area, I'd think mine model 4 would have a different limit than a #1.
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I kind of get the feeling that my suggestions were interpreted as an attack on Steve or his company that needed to be defended. But that could not be further from the truth or how I meant for it to come out anyhow. It feels weird for me to be disagreeing with my mentors (Old Sarge and Divot), but I guess we all have our own opinions right? :)
Nothing farther from the truth, Gregg! I took your comments as your opinion, which is valuable! As I mentioned in my post, it was "my 2¢ on what it boils down to." Let me clarify something - I do not work for SI, and I do not speak for Steve. Yes, we communicate often, on lots of different issues, but it's his company - not mine. Steve doesn't participate in the forum, as he believes it's our (users) forum. I try to pass-on info, as I hear it, and do the best I can to help promote these great smokers.
Healthy discussion is great, and different opinions usually lead to great solutions/compromises! You have valid points, Gregg, but I still disagree. You know, as well as I do, that the majority of SI owners a) do not participate in the forum, and b) do not have the experience, or common sense, many of us do. I believe you have to strike a balance between what people want in a smoker, and what is "above and beyond" what the "average" consumer will buy.
I'll clarify the box temp rating, for those of you who may want to push it to 500. ;)
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I'm glad my comments were received the way they were meant to be given.
I think I said my piece on this, so am fine with leaving it as agree to disagree. Like I said earlier, it was a healthy discussion where both sides were "passionately" :) given. That's all one can ask for.
It is a credit to Steve to provide us this forum where we have the opportunity to have these discussions.
Onward and upward. I just took 10lbs of burger out of the fridge to make some extruded Jerky this week. More to come on this in the Jerky section.
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Tony, Gregg, et al, Sorry for getting in here late. Watched the SOTU address followed by two episodes of Wanted Dead or Alive on the Western Channel. I actually liked the discussion but felt I came off a tad harsh with the crock pot remark ( I use that frequently). I have, by PM, sent folks sources for controllers and elements if I thought for one second that they might be inclined to experiment or modify their smoker much the same way folks buy a car and start replacing the stock parts. It is what they do. They have a rock solid platform and just want to push it to the limit.
Over Thanksgiving, having run out of oven space, I threw a smoked ham into my smoker and maxed out the temperature at 300. I cannot say the smoker cabinet got hot enough to burn (maybe a child might cry), but it was too hot to comfortably rest one's hand on it for more than 15 or 20 seconds on the top. Considering the temperature these rascals are designed to operate at, I would surmise that while the insulation chosen would handle much higher temperatures (again surmising) it is the amount of insulation & air between the inner chamber and the exterior shell that would prove to be the limiting factor. And there is that well placed tag warning about the hot surface. As mentioned earlier, there is a liability factor.
Can someone purchase a heating element that will, with a proper controller (and all the high temperature wire and connectors), allow one to bake loaves of bread in their smoker? Yes! Is it worth the risk? That is up to the individual, not SI. Again, liability.
There are no 'black holes' that questions fall into and never get answered. Just areas that have not been explored at personal expense by forum members and therefore cannot be answered. Sometime one has to strike out on their own, blaze a new trail, and report back. That happened early on with the Auber, then the bypass, the switch, etc. Some money, some time, some risk. Lots of success.
Time for a Pabst!
Dave
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You'll need more than a Pabst if you saw the STOU tv parade.
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I always enjoy the State of the Union. No matter who is President. Still the greatest nation on earth.
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Good discussion guys. I have been working a lot lately so haven't had a lot of time to visit the forum. I have a model 2 with an Auber and have done the bypass. I can see where having the analog controller be able to go a little higher would be beneficial but also see where a lot of people just wouldn't need the higher temps. I have cooked poultry at 275 but that's the only time I have went higher than 250. I am somewhat of a gear junkie so the Auber was a no brainer for me. I love my #2 but in if I had it to do over I would have spent the extra money and got the #3. The extra room would be nice!
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I love my #2 but in if I had it to do over I would have spent the extra money and got the #3. The extra room would be nice!
I don't think I'll ever fill my model 4 but bought it for the rack size. I'll wonder if I could have spent a less money and done with a #3 but the big rack size is really what I wanted.
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Actually at 15X20, the #3 racks are really not that much smaller than the 18.5" racks from the #4. I have seen some conflicting information on the rack size in the #4's, so not sure if I am 100% right on that.
The big thing with the #4 is you get that height which would be awesome if you want to be able to hang things like sausages, bagged hams, etc.
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Back to the original question on box temp: Steve confirmed what I originally posted - 350 is the max recommended safe temp for the box. Hope this clarifies this.
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'nuff said.
So, who has an opinion on football air pressure? Personally, I am waiting for baseball.
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'nuff said.
So, who has an opinion on football air pressure? Personally, I am waiting for baseball.
;) I'm with ya, Dave! Sick of "Ballgazi!"
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Back to the original question on box temp: Steve confirmed what I originally posted - 350 is the max recommended safe temp for the box. Hope this clarifies this.
And stated so as the same for all boxes, 1 - 4?
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And stated so as the same for all boxes, 1 - 4?
Same for all boxes. They are made exactly the same, just different sizes.
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Tony, thanks for all your work on this.
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Not a problem at all, Roger! ;)
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My 2 cents are that allowing the smoker to be able to reach 325 or 350 degrees stock would be a tremendous advantage from a marketing standpoint for Steve and SI. People do not drop $1400 for a smoker and do not know what they are doing. Those people buy Masterbuilt Electric Smokers from Bass Pro for $150, not a Smokin-It. I would have to venture a guess that every single person that bought a Smokin-it did a tremendous amount of research to find that it is worth the extra money to invest in a Smokin-it vs a Masterbuilt and that its a great value compared to some of the other electrics.
Personally, I owned a pellet grill before the Smokin-it and never once did I cook pork higher than 225 degrees or chicken at less than 325 degrees. The amount of money involved with these cuts of meats pretty much guarantees that you look up the best way to cook the cut, including spices, temps, and cooking times.
I talked to Steve at the show before buying my smoker and told me to come to the forums to find out how to modify my smoker to have it run higher than 250 degrees. It could be liability that it is limited to 250 degrees but I think he is missing out on what could happen to his demand if this maximum would be raised to 325 or 350.
I am also wondering if we can just modify the analog controller itself to bump up 75 or 100 degrees. This way, the machine would maintain its failsafe shutdown ability past 350 degrees. If anyone has the electrical diagram of the analog controller, please let me know. I have some talented electricians at my work.
thanks,
paidin