Smokin-It User Forum!
Problems and Troubleshooting => Having a problem? Look Here First, or Post Your Question! => Topic started by: BBQboy on February 28, 2014, 09:35:41 AM
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Just got my Model Number 1 on Wednesday.
I ran it for the first time yesterday.
Pork butt took 18 hours, the temperature inside the smoker never got above 205 degrees and it took several hours for it to reach that temperature.
Temperature was set at 250 degrees.
Outside temperature was 15 degrees, very light breeze.
The smoker never cycled on and off, because it never came up to temperature.
Pork butt was just shy of 8 pounds.
Water pan was beside the smokebox.
Any idea what happened? :-[
<Gus>
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18 hours for an 8lb butt isn't "totally" out of the ordinary. You would normally figure 1.5/2.0 hours/pound. So, you are a bit over that, but every piece of meat is different.
The main question, is how did the butt turn out?
Where did you have your smoker probe located?
When you say the smoker never cycled on/off, do you mean the red light never turned off? If so, it sounds to me like you may have a problem and should talk to Steve at Smokin-It. Telephone/Text - 260-417-9951 Email - smokin.it.info@gmail.com
I have a butt in my smoker (#3) and my temps (dial set at 225) have ranged from 205-265 over night with overnight low temp of -7.
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There were two thermocouples in the smoker to measure air temperature.
They were placed at the same level as the meat but they were not close enough to anything so as to cause a problem.
Both thermocouples were within a degree or two the entire smoke.
The butt was a bit mushy and rather dry in spots - very disappointing.
<Gus>
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There were two thermocouples in the smoker to measure air temperature.
They were placed at the same level as the meat but they were not close enough to anything so as to cause a problem.
Both thermocouples were within a degree or two the entire smoke.
The butt was a bit mushy and rather dry in spots - very disappointing.
<Gus>
Welcome, BBQBoy. Sorry to hear of your issues. Questions:
1. Did you see the red light on top go on and off at all?
2. What kind of temp probes were you using?
3. Tell us about your meat prep (injected? brined? just rub?)
4. If this was a bone-in butt, are you certain your meat probe wasn't touching the bone?
5. Based on your description of "mushy and dry in spots," sounds like it was overcooked. What was the internal temp when you pulled it out?
6. Did you foil-wrap and let it rest prior to shredding?
The more we know about the details, the better we can help!
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1. Did you see the red light on top go on and off at all?
As I said above, the element (and the light) never cycled on and off.
2. What kind of temp probes were you using?
Professional Omega thermocouples.
3. Tell us about your meat prep (injected? brined? just rub?)
Rub only.
4. If this was a bone-in butt, are you certain your meat probe wasn't touching the bone?
There were two thermocouples in the meat, neither thermocouple was touching bone.
5. Based on your description of "mushy and dry in spots," sounds like it was overcooked. What was the internal temp when you pulled it out?
It sure was overcooked, it was in the smoker for 18 hours! Finish temperature was 196 degrees.
6. Did you foil-wrap and let it rest prior to shredding?
No foil and no shredding.
<Gus>
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If I may suggest smoking with no pan of water and repeating the cook. I suggest this because this style smoker is fairly tight and the water introduces another variable. Also there is generally enough fat in a butt to keep the meat moist. Meat is not cheap, I know, but you just may get different and better results in a shorter period of time. Water evaporation under certain conditions produces a cooling effect. Not saying this is the case with these smokers but it is worth exploring as a possible solution.
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It seems odd that you weren't able to get to temp if the red light was on the whole time.
Usually, I think we here that when this happens the red light cycles on and off while not getting to temp.
That is why I was thinking that there may be some type of problem.
I have used a mini-foil pan in all of my smokes and not had a problem. But it would definitely be worth a shot to try it without the water pan to see if you get better results. Like Sarge said, you should not need a water pan for a pork butt smoke.
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Hey Gus, I guess I misunderstood. I thought you were smoking pulled pork. I would suggest 175 internal temp for sliced pork. We usually go 199-203 for pulled pork. Either way, I would also suggest double-wrapping in HD foil when you take it out of the smoker, place it in cooler with a towel on top, and let the meat rest for 30 min to an hour. This makes a big difference in the results.
Forgive me if I've insulted your intelligence; I don't know what your smoking background is, as you are brand new to the forum. I sensed a little annoyance in your reply about the light. I only asked the specific question to help isolate the problem.
We're glad you're here. When you have time, go to the Introductions section and tell us about yourself and your smoker background. My comments here are meant to help, so please don't take offense. ;)
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It was pulled pork - we pull it, we don't shred it.
I ran the smoker today with the two small water pans both sides of the smoke box (no meat load) and it came up to temperature within an hour.
I don't get it!
<Gus>
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I pull it too, Gus. I said "shred" in my post because I didn't want to confuse "pulling" it out of the smoker with "pulling" the pork. lol. No worries!
May sound funny, but you may have just had a bad pork butt. I've had, on rare occasion, a cut of meat that just does NOT cook right, or turn out right, even though I follow my same successful formula! That's the thing about Q - sometimes, it just doesn't go as planned!
I would suggest do a chicken, or some baby back ribs, and see what the results are.
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I have to agree that if the light never cycled off then the box would have become very hot indeed but sounds like the internal temp got up to level. Odd that it didn't turn out at that point. Like Tony stated, maybe it was a bad cut of pork but if you only rubbed it that could be leading towards certain parts drying out a bit. I would suggest giving Tony's brine a try next time. It is super awesome all the times I have used it and others can attest to that as well. I think you might need to give the unit a few smokes to settle down a bit.
Curious, did you season the smoker first? or was this the first thing you smoked?
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The light never cycled off because the smoker never came up to the PID set temperature of 225 degrees.
The internal temperature never exceeded 205 degrees.
The door was not opened during the entire smoke.
The smoker was seasoned.
<Gus>
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Do you have an Auber PID? I only ask because you said the "PID" set temp.
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The PID is an Omega.
<Gus>
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Gus,
If I remember, you indicated that with just water pans, the smoker did hit and stabilize at 250 (or am I thinking of another post somewhere). In any event, I would still try smoking another butt, same weight without the water pan. Call it a test.
I never use added moisture. And I let the meat, be it ribs or butt, sit outside of the refrigerator for at approximately 30 minutes with just a dry rub before it goes into the smoker. Outside of one ruined butt (over smoked, but not overcooked) I have always gotten a nice juicy product with good bark. And I shoot for an IT of 190/195, which is my preference.
I have had butts within just a couple of ounces of each other vary in cooking times by as little as 30 minutes to as much as 2 hours. Maybe my probe was sitting in fat rather than meat from smoke to smoke. But they were all good. And my brother (model 3 owner) uses no water pan and relies only on IT, does not monitor the chamber temp as it is going to do what it does with or without an additional reading, and is having good success as well.
I hope you get this narrowed down.
Dave
I just looked at the Omega PID site. Looks like a good solid unit, although I don't know which model you have. Under the Auber tips and tricks topic, it seems like most folks modify and bypass the stock controller to eliminate the conflict between analog and digital. I definitely cannot speak to that but it is worth considering.
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I'm not familiar with the Omega, but I bet if you post the model you're using, we can help. We have some pretty smart tech guys on here that probably know all about the Omega units. Not sure, just guessing, but it may be a tuning issue. And, like Dave said, if you want the best control possible with a PID, the stock controller bypass is the way to go. It's easy, and puts the PID in total control.
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Hey Gus,
Not sure how you have the Omega PID hooked up, but since I use some PIDs in my homebrewing... I'm assuming the PID also has a light for when its relay is closed. Did it cycle at all as it was getting closer to reaching the temp?
-Is it possible the cycle time is set so low that the blinking is so fast the light appears to stay on? I think the Auber defaults to about a 2 sec cycle time if I'm not mistaken. Maybe yours is set to fractional seconds or something? I know for homebrewing I tend to set the cycle time as low as possible to prevent surges in the boil kettle. The theory is cycle time so low AND PID values in a range that are causing throttling to prevent overshooting temp.
-Also since I use PIDs to control a solid state relay which controls the heating circuit. Do you have the same type of setup? Is it possible that the relay isn't allowing the full current to flow? (ie damaged in some way?)
I know both of these are probably both a shot in the dark, just thinking out loud. I have the #3 so my experiences on heat-up are probably different due to size of unit and wattage of element, so really can't help with what is typical on the #1. It just seems strange the light was on the whole time and the thing didn't get that hot. If I had to guess the #3 runs less than 20% (if that) on -20F days after reaching temp.
Disclaimer - I'm no expert in the PIDs, just throwing things out there to see if anything sticks...
Good Luck,
Wik
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There isn't anything wrong with the PID.
I've used PIDs for many years - the particular PID in question has performed flawlessly on several other smokers.
The element simply isn't coming up to temperature for some reason - I disconnected the PID near the end of the cook and it didn't make a bit of different.
Power line voltage was checked and that's fine.
I'm reluctant to alter the smoker because I don't want to void the warranty in any way.
<Gus>
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I guess I'd probably reach out to Steve to see what he thinks. He's taken care of me before when I had a concern. Logically the only other thing I can think of is the element based on what you have said, but those I believe are either good or completely don't work. Strangest thing I have heard of. Everything you stated makes it sounds like the element is undersized (which I'm assuming was your first thought all along), otherwise something faulty which the only things left are wire, connections, internal thermostat switch contacts, and element. I'll defer to the guys that actually have this size smoker / wattage of element with similar meat load as if it was undersized I'd think others would be seeing the same thing. Maybe check with ohm meter and calc backwards to wattage for 120 circuit OR a kilowatt meter if you have one to see if wattage pull = advertised watts. All I know is the #3 the auber/pid needs to start throttling well ahead of the set point to prevent and overshoot of the preset temp (typically 225 on my smokes). The most meat I've put in at once was (2) 8lb butts and once a pretty big turkey. But my experiences really are not an apples to apples comparison.
Best suggestion I have is to Email or call Steve
Hope you get to the bottom of it!
Wik
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I guess bypassing the internal switch might remove a possibility, but I doubt it will help since the smoker light was lit the whole time. It would be different if the smoker light was cycling at a lower temperature due to a faulty thermostat, but based on what you reported this is not the case. I really only bypassed mine to be able to take it higher to around 300F for chicken and such to get a better crisp skin / etc. I'm with you, I'd be hesitant to be crackin it open until you check with Steve.
Wik
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Chad,
What you say on the bypass makes sense. But is there a possibility that with a PID controlling the power to the smoker and having a PID probe competing with the on board probe and thus the controller, could there not be a conflict or some interference? I will admit I have no experience in this (and probably should butt out altogether), but others here and elsewhere did eventually bypass with some stating they desired a higher temp and others stating it was the only way to get to a desired temp such as the magical 225 and have it stabilize.
Dave
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Gus, this is probably a dumb question, but it's not specifically clear in your previous comments. When you had the PID attached, was the analog temp knob set to 250? This has been overlooked in the past. Also, I would suggest putting a good heat sink in the smoker (a few bricks or pan of sand, and a water pan), no wood, no PID, and check the internal temp again. Clip your thermometer probe to the little shelf that the OEM thermocouple is attached to, so it will read as close as possible to the stock sensor, then set the analog dial to 250. I think it would be worth eliminating the possibility of an issue with your particular PID. See if the smoker functions properly, as it came from the factory, then test further with the PID. I'm sure that's a great PID, but so far as I know, it has never been used on this brand of smoker. You definitely sound like you have a very good working knowledge of PIDs, but it seems we need to remove it from the equation to test the smoker.
I have a model 1 that has seldom been idle for very long, and I have never experienced problems with it not getting up to temp, even 250. You are, of course, limited by Q real estate in the #1, so it's really hard to "overload" it, like these guys with a #3. ;) I only use the #1 in analog mode.
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Dave,
That is what I like about this form, everyone gives their opinions. One of the reasons I try and read all the new topics as I learn something all the time. Most of the time others beat me to the punch, so I'm usually just lurking in the background. You could be right and would make sense in some situations. Meaning the built in temperature probe is towards the bottom (closer to the heat element) so if that senses that it is hot enough to "cut" the current prior to the Auber Pid temp probe that is closer to the meat (further away from the heat element). Then yes it is very feasible that they are conflicting with each other. Basically like having 2 switches in series. They must both be On to allow smoker to heat, but if either one is in the off position then no heating will occur. So if the internal one is always On meaning it thinks it is not hot enough yet, then there shouldn't be a problem. Otherwise yes it could cause issues.
I guess I should say I'm assuming the internal one is truly an On / Off type switch similar to what is in an electric oven (and not some type of proportional unit). Maybe others could correct my understanding if I'm mistaken. I myself like being by-passed for the higher temp reason, but I think at first I did it to ensure I didn't have any possible conflict as well. But I will say my smokes with auber prior to by-passing with analog set to 250 worked just fine. However Analog ones probably have some varying temperature ranges, as I suspect it is just a bulb that heats the air inside it that pushes open a set of relay contacts.
Wik
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Wik,
Here is a little explanation of these analog controllers. I am assuming of course that the SI uses a bulb and capillary unit, which is very common.
Dave
http://www.tempco.com/Catalog/Section%2013-pdf/Bulb_Capillary_Thermostats.pdf
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I think that the problem may have been caused by the wind.
The breeze was light but it was sort of funneled between two buildings.
I smoked a chicken today, again the smoker was initially very slow coming up to temperature so I blocked the wind from blowing across the top of the smoker - the temperature jumped up about 20 degrees in 20 minutes.
So, with the pork butt smoke, apparently the little 350 watt element couldn't overcome what was being lost to the light breeze.
<Gus>
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That is interesting. I've heard others talk about the affect of wind, I guess I haven't had an issue with it. Usually some wind where I live, but smoker is generally in a corner that helps shield it a bit. But there is always some it seems. Maybe the #1 is more susceptible to the wind factor then the models with larger wattage elements. Damn that venturi affect. >:(
Looks like you've made some ground on this mystery!
Wik
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Sounds plausible, depending on wind strength. I've used my #1 many times in the wind, and haven't had that kind of issue. My house sits on top of a little hill, so the wind is usually stronger than down below. The smoker is on the southern porch, so I catch the prevailing south wind most of the time...except during this stinking winter! I've always expected problems due to the wind, but haven't experienced them. My little beast works harder in the wind, I guess! What I'm saying is that I do probably 8 out of 10 smokes on windy days (10-15 mph, or higher).