Smokin-It User Forum!
Problems and Troubleshooting => Having a problem? Look Here First, or Post Your Question! => Topic started by: rickne on November 29, 2013, 05:34:07 PM
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Something isn't right. My maverick or my thermostat are not working correctly. I think its the thermostat. I can't get this thing above 210.
Its cold out but not that cold. And this should push thru 18 lbs if cold meat easily.
The question is do I call and get the thermostat replaced or just buy the PID? Or both?
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Sorry to hear you're having problems, Rick. I'd call Steve and see what he thinks. Good guy, and he'll take care of you. He'll probably replace the controller. You might want to check the box temp with another thermometer also. But hey, if you want it dead-on, get the PID. ;) Analog controllers are not that accurate, but should get hotter than 210.
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I can live with swings. My variance is pretty tight. I'm 7 hours into to pork butts. The swing is between 197 & 210 consistently. I have it dialed up to 250 though. I repositioned two probes in the unit and they are both within 1 degree of each other.
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Yep...call Steve next week.
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I too learned quickly how mighty the temp swings can be. But with a water pan it evens out a bit more, but the main temp never really got up to 250F even here in AZ while being only 64F during the day. I feel that the rheostat is to blame here. I am switching to a custom built PID controller to give me more control. Hopefully that will be the best option. I am a tech guy so I do like to see what is actually going on and have more control.
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So I was able to limp through my cook. I'm cooking lunch for a small hockey team today. Two 8lb pork shoulders. Knowing this thing stuggled to get to a decent temp on Thanksgiving, I put the butts in early. 23 hours in advance. Like I said, temp was consistent 197-210. The highest temp I recall seeing was 214 and lowest 189.
The good news... you can cook a pork butt low and slow at 200 degrees. It just takes time. I put them on at 2pm yesterday. 15 hours (7am) I wrapped them in foil and put them in the oven at 235 too push them up to 203 degrees. They came out of the oven at 9am and frankly looked and felt really nice. I wrapped them in plastic, foil, and towels and they are resting in the cooler until 1pm. I threw a large pan of beans on the cooker this morning.
I'm glad I was able to limp through and still come out with a good product.
The turkey's on Thanksgiving weren't so fortunate. I really pressed the DANGER ZONE (145 degrees in 4 hours). I ended up finishing the breast in the oven and it turned out good. The bird didn't fair so well. I ended up throwing it out because it took 6 hours to get to 145 degrees.
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Sorry to hear about this. You can test the Maverick with some boiling water, but my guess is that the controller on the unit may be off. Did you try raising the temp on the dial? If that did not work, then I would suggest calling Steve to see what he thinks.
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Had the dial cranked both times. The weird thing is when I did my beans, it ran 215-230. That's with a pan of six 22 oz cans of cold beans. I will call on monday. I may just end up with a pid and bypass tye analog stat so that I can push 20lbs of mear on a winter night.
I did check all my probes in boiling water. My maverick probes read 214 and 211. My polder read 212.
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I feel your pain. I can't understand why a rheostat that can go up to 250F wont go there is working properly. Thus why I am going the PID route. Today my smoke with a TB never reached the 250F temp, just around 230F. It was a decent 70F outside, so should have met that temp easily.
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Rick and Ben - are either of you using a large drip pan on the bottom shelf? In the past, we've had several people placing a drip pan between the smoke box and box temp probe, and they've experienced low temps. Just curious...
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My wife gave me her crock pizza pan . About twelve by eighteen really helps keep temp up and more even. And still use water pan helps even more.
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My last two smokes I have not gotten the temperature inside the box higher than 235 degrees. I have the temp at 250. It was under 45 degrees outside temperature. I am not sure if that is the issue or not.
The smokes came out very good but just concerned about not getting above 235.
Maybe we can get Ben to ask Steve if the weather plays a role in the temp inside the box.
Tony, maybe worth a global question.
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DM- yes I have a pan on the lowest shelf but not quite up to the temp probe. Plus I have a maverick probe up a few shelves to get a more accurate reading. The pans are Weber aluminum pans so they shouldn't be blocking too much heat.
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Ben, try a smoke without a pan below the meat. Nothing but smoke box, water pan and meat. Let us know if you see any difference.
Ed, good idea on the outside temp issue. I'll get a post on that right away.
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will do on the no pan, since it seems I will have to make ribs this weekend any way ;)
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There you go, Ben! Ribs, pan full of apple juice/cider, and 5-6 hours time. Easy Button ribs! ;D
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Rick and Ben - are either of you using a large drip pan on the bottom shelf? In the past, we've had several people placing a drip pan between the smoke box and box temp probe, and they've experienced low temps. Just curious...
Oddly, some say putting a pan in there evens out the temp swings. But it sounds like it can kill your heating capacity.
I suspect this was part of the problem with my turkeys. I had two small pans beneath my turkey's to catch drippings. I put a little water in both. I figured it was killing the heat by trapping heat beneath the pans, causing the thermostat to kick off the element when the temp above the pan was only 180 degrees. To fix this, I removed both pans and stuck my 6lb breast in the oven. I left the 12lb turkey on there but the temp never did get above 215. Weather was in the twenty's with a stiff north wind.
The next day, I cooked 2 butts. 15 lbs total. No pans at all. I placed them on two different shelves and staggered them with the lower butt placed nearer the door and the top butt placed in the rear. Never got above 210 degrees in the cooker. Weather was in the 30's and 40's with a light south breeze.
Oddly, I smoked the beans on Saturday. A 12x12 pan with 130 oz of cold beans from the fridge. The cooker did get as high as 230.
Every cook, I had the dial pegged at 250. I find it hard to believe it's the weather. My element is kicking off. If it were weather related (lack of insulation), the element would continually run but mine does not. If it did, I wouldn't have this issue.
I'm thinking the pans can kill your heat transfer. But my bigger concern is that this unit should push 45lbs of meat and from what I'm experiencing, anything over 12lbs causes it to labor.
I'm placing a call right now. I'd order the PID but my discretionary income is going to keeping my dog alive right now. We have a creek at the back of our lot and my retriever loves to get down in there and hunt around. Sunday, he came across and ate a rancid carcass and has a stomach full of bones now. $750 at the emergency vet yesterday. He's back at our normal vet all day today. I hope I don't lose him. He's an incredible dog.
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Best wishes for your dog, Rick! Tough to go through!
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I really hope your dog is doing ok. Hate to hear when pets get ill, they are another member of the family.
I just got parts to make a temporary PID setup that I want to experiment with, only cost $34 from ebay. I will post pics elsewhere.
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The dog is doing a little better. They induced vomiting on Sunday, got 2 lbs of the carcass out, mostly bones. They figured they got 70% out. He came home Sunday night but under the condition that he was to go back to our regular vet on Monday. He spent the day there pushing the balance of it through and giving him enemas. He's home again but not so spunky. I can't blame him. I wouldn't be so thrilled with induced vomiting and enemas. He still has some bones working through is digestive track and until they pass, we aren't really out of the woods. But it's certainly better than where we were 48 hours ago.
Back to the topic... I spoke to Steve today. He had me pop off my controller knob and turn it 90 degrees to the right. I'm I missing something or does this not really fix my problem? Yes, the actual temps in the cooker may resemble what the knob is pointed at now, but I'm not going to get any hotter temps. I'm still cooking at 180-210 degrees.
I'm starting to think the only way to get this thing to run hotter than 225 or be able to push 20lbs of meat is to invest in the $200 PID.
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Not sure how Steve explained the process to you. You should see a stop or limiter on the mounting that the shaft passes through that prevents the controller from overshooting or undershooting the temperature readings on your smoker. In many cases, this stop is adjustable, even if slightly. On occasion, the stop may be permanently fixed in position or only accessible by dismantling a secondary housing. Once you have it adjusted to 'increase', and reassembled, it is just a matter of repositioning the controller assembly and/or the knob so that the control knob index aligns with the low to high temperature settings on the decal. It may take some finagling, as well as testing to see if you have it set to where you are satisfied.
By adjusting the stop, you increase or decrease the current reaching the element and thus the temperature. I am not an electrician, so I probably explained that all wrong, but you get the point.
Be aware, that in his FAQ, there are temp swings of 30 degrees or better above and below the set point. And this is common with other analog smokers as well.
Lastly, I hope I have not stepped on any toes here.
Dave
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Rick - glad to hear the dog is doing better! ;D Dave - great explanation! I'm going to mess with the controller knob on mine to see if I can "fine tune" it a little. I don't get big temp swings in my #1, but it's a little off from the dial. I'll get back to you on this...
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Be aware, that in his FAQ, there are temp swings of 30 degrees or better above and below the set point. And this is common with other analog smokers as well.
The swings are minor and not an issue at all. Trying to get the cooker over 210 degrees before the element kicks off is my issue. When my dial is pegged, I'm typically running 180-210
I sent an email to Steve for directions on what I need to do. I think I did misunderstand him. Moving the plastic knob is not going to get me more heat. Now it points to 240 when it's off and 220 when I have it maxed. From what David said, it sounds like there is an adjustment on the metal piece that the knob attaches to. That would make much more sense. I will get directions from Steve. I don't want to go prying anything that I don't need to. My knob is already really lose.
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I got the pictures/directions from Steve. The only fix is to adjust the "orientation" of the plastic knob so that it points to 245 when it's off and 220 when its cranked all the way up.
David, do you know of a way to adjust the stop on the smoker, itself?
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Do these operate with a Rheostat or a thermostat? That could be the answer to the question of how weather affects these. A rheostat is a dimmer switch with no monitoring of the smoker temps. A Thermostat will have a probe that monitors the internal temp and run the heating element accordingly.
Everything on the website states thermostat.
But people here refer to it as a rheostat.
Is there a temp probe inside sensing temperatures and kicking the element on and off? I really haven't seen one, but haven't looked that closely at the back wall.
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The temperature probe is inside the smoker, protruding from the back wall. You should see it between the shelves, and use, this is what regulates the thermostat, or controller to an on/off state.
These can be called many things, including a potentiometer. It is not any different than what controls a deep fryer, other than they are set /designed to reach a higher temperature.
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The temperature probe is inside the smoker, protruding from the back wall. You should see it between the shelves, and use, this is what regulates the thermostat, or controller to an on/off state.
These can be called many things, including a potentiometer. It is not any different than what controls a deep fryer, other than they are set /designed to reach a higher temperature.
Good. With that said, it really shouldn't be the weather affecting it, given my element is turning on at 180 and turning off at 210.
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I don't know, Rick, but it sure sounds like a bad thermostat. I can set my dial to 140 and produce smoke, and I seen it hold 225 during smokes (I rarely crank it up above that). Sounds like the thermostat is not kicking on and off right. Just my 2-cents...
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Congrats on "Hero Member" status, Ed! We now have 3! ;D
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I've been working with Steve. I think we are heading down a path of resolution. I will let you all know how it turns out but I'm confident it will turn out fine. I have a couple of cooks "scheduled". One for the office on Dec. 20th (Pulled pork and bbq beans for 20 people), chicken for the family on the 21st, and Buffalo Wings and Stuffed Jalapeno's on Christmas Eve. There may even be a Christmas day cook.
I'm hoping to get out pheasant hunting over the holidays and with some luck, will get to do some bacon wrapped pheasant breasts.
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Glad to hear that, Rick! Hope all turns out well.
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Rick,
Let us know what you come up with. I am having a similar issue and it's driving me crazy. I desperately want to love my smoker, but I can't seem to finish a cook with it. My temps just stall and hold. Even with allowing for additional hours of time I am still not able to finish. My buddy has a commercial cookshack and I think what I need is a digital controller. I have been trying several cooks to try and hit a home run, but just can't seem to finish a cook.
I currently have 2 8 lb. butts on my #3 and it's been 17 hours and I am still sitting at about 180 IT.
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I have been running some tests since I am new to SI. NOTE also dealing with different cuts of meat as I bought a half pig versus my normal trips to the butcher to get exactly what I want.
That said... Try an over sized cookie sheet with a 1" lip. I have and old one and I when filled with water it adds moisture and acts as a drip pan too. And with such a thin amount of water say 1/2" or so it helps act as a heat sink to stabilize the heat your food sees without being obtrusive to the process.
I have auto tuned my Auber and SI3 with this in place and it's rocking holding within plus minus degree F.
Steve
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will do on the no pan, since it seems I will have to make ribs this weekend any way ;)
I've been thinking about the pan on the lower shelf issue, and have theorized that the pan doesn't so much "block" the heat, but rather channels it. As the heat rises from the smoke box, it is redirected around the edges of the pan. So, you're actually "channeling" the heat right up the back to the thermocouple. This would be a "focused" stream of hot air moving across the thermocouple, which would fool it into thinking the box temp is much higher than it is, and would shut the element off before it should.
I'm no engineer, but that's my simple theory! Of course, I could be wrong... ;)
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I think you should check your outlet and or extension cord if using one. I had a similar issue with a cheap electric smoker a while back. Took a couple of incidents and my Fluke volt meter to figure out that I had voltage drop of 12 to 30 volts!!!! Depending on which side of the outlet I used. One of the wires to the outlet had loosened a little causing the problem. I found the problem only after the controller melted down from low voltage ,I replaced the outlet and been good since.
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... volume too low and air flow minimal for that to be of any significance (re: bottom shelf cookie sheet)... from a heat transfer analysis air flow negligible and there is no medium to transfer any heat except the outlet vent ... Once system stable what you say makes sense but it would be in the 0.01 deg F kind of range.
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I think you should check your outlet and or extension cord if using one. I had a similar issue with a cheap electric smoker a while back. Took a couple of incidents and my Fluke volt meter to figure out that I had voltage drop of 12 to 30 volts!!!! Depending on which side of the outlet I used. One of the wires to the outlet had loosened a little causing the problem. I found the problem only after the controller melted down from low voltage ,I replaced the outlet and been good since.
Possible, but I never used an extension cord and ran this on 3 different outlets/breakers with the same result. I could have a voltage drop in the house, but I don't think it was the issue.
... volume too low and air flow minimal for that to be of any significance (re: bottom shelf cookie sheet)... from a heat transfer analysis air flow negligible and there is no medium to transfer any heat except the outlet vent ... Once system stable what you say makes sense but it would be in the 0.01 deg F kind of range.
From my experience, placement of the thermometer has everything to do with numbers you register. I would have agreed with your statement but I've ran this thing several times with different size loads, with two probes monitoring temps. There is a significant difference in heat between the probe below the meat and the probe above the meat. It's not such a big deal if you are cooking one thing, but if you have 2-3 things on different racks, it is.
Every smoker I've owned measures cooking temps in the middle of the cooker or higher.
I've gone with an Auber now and I love my set up. I can place the probe on the rack I'm cooking on so I can be confident of the temp at the meat level. It's also given me the flexibility to cook at a wide variety of temperatures. I can cook pork low and slow, bumping up temps at the end to complete it. I can cook turkeys at 250 degrees or higher. I even cooked my beef tenderloin at 300 degrees.
I'm really happy with this combo.
SI #3 + Auber = An incredibly flexible, cold weather cooking machine.
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... agree if place the temp probe closer to the heater it reads a higher temp.... was only commenting the water pan doesn't impact temps or temp gradients in the box once equilibrium reached. ;-)
QUESTION: Did you bypass the thermostat on your SI3? I am considering doing that and wondering pros/cons? For now I'm leaving it in the loop... sort of like a "safety" on a piece of weaponry... does it get better results of the AUBER?
Steve
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Sent you a PM regarding the bypass, Steve.
As far as the water pan, maybe once the box has reached an equilibrium. But my personal experience has been with a dozen pounds or more of cold meat above a large enough pan, it took a long long long time for my #3 to reach that equilibrium. I suspect the smaller box of the #1 or #2 might reach that point much quicker (less volume and less meat).
If it's working for folks, don't change it. It's part of the fun of BBQing. There aren't always right and wrong answers... just answers.
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Saw the PM. Thanks. I might bypass but thus far I'm staying under 250 so the S13 set at 250 and Auber programmed to 225.... I have effectively bypassed the controller. Should I want to go above the 250 mark I may need bypass.
Love the response.... There are only answers.. No right or wrong just answers. How true it doesn't matter as long as the food is good.
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... volume too low and air flow minimal for that to be of any significance (re: bottom shelf cookie sheet)... from a heat transfer analysis air flow negligible and there is no medium to transfer any heat except the outlet vent ... Once system stable what you say makes sense but it would be in the 0.01 deg F kind of range.
This is a great theoretical explanation, and makes perfect sense. But, the historical reality doesn't seem to support the theory. If you read about this issue not only here, but on other forums as well, the consensus seems to support not using a large pan below the meat. I'm not sure what the technical explanation is, but many times it has been the culprit that seems to have caused the heating issues. Not throwing darts - just lending to the healthy discussion! Like Rick said so well - there are no right or wrong answers, just answers!
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I think that an overall "just big enough pan" would help with the heat exchange issues that are being explained. If the aluminum pan is just big enough to slightly cover the element house, then it shouldn't effect the heat that much. If it is really big, then yes, it will block the heat a bit. But again, if the internal temp reaches the set point, then there is really no "flow" inside other than the extremely small bottom hole and the vent at the top. This wouldn't create enough eddy currents to cause bad readings. This might just be my opinion but seems pretty logical.
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Good point, Ben! One thing that's overlooked, I think, is the "Venturi" effect. That is, the flow through a smaller hole is greater than a larger hole, if the amount of air passing through both is the same. If you see smoke flowing from the top vent hole, the air coming in the small hole in the bottom has to be somewhat equal, which would make it flow faster. So, we really don't know what is going on inside the box, from an airflow perspective. I would think that the heat of the smoke box is drawing the air in through the bottom at a much higher rate than the air blowing out the top hole, so the lower part of the smoker probably has higher air currents than at the top, where it's diffused.
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True but with this rectangular enclosure with the intake just below the heat box, then the air would hit that surface and have to mitigate to other areas after hitting it. Thus it wouldn't be a perfect flow. God I wish I had that particle software to make a graphic of how the flow would work inside these units. Can Ben or Steve make that?
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Could you add a bigger heating element? Would that increase the temperature?
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You are still limited to the max temp of the stock controller (250 deg). This limit is present on all 4 models of smokers, regardless of the element wattage. And it will fluctuate (see the FAQ section). Check some of the posts regarding the Auber units. Some of the folks using the Auber and bypassing the stock controller may have been able to reached a sustained higher temperature. But smoking is generally a lower temperature with a long, slow cook time.
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Dave is definitely right. Something else to remember about the heating elements is size. The wattage is driven by the surface area of the element; a small element (like in the #1) needs much less wattage to heat the space in a model 1. The 700 watt element in a 2 is due to the length of the element (about 3" longer). The 3 is even bigger yet. Putting a larger element in a unit that doesn't need one could be overkill, at best, or disastrous at worst. If the element heats way too fast for the enclosure, it will likely be hard to control.
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You guys said it perfectly ... But if a (stock or Auber) controller were to fail and the stock element were stuck on ... That would be disastrous because components would start to fail.
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I bet the 700 and 1200 watt elements would get pretty darn hot if stuck on at full power!
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I do think you would experienced some sort of issue if the unit was stuck on full blast:
ACHTUNG!!!
Das machine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy
schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und corkenpoppen mit
spitzensparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken by das dummkopfen. Das
rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets. Relaxen und
vatch das blinkenlights!!!
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Nice, Dave! ;D
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Just something different. Thanks.
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I made the temperature adjustment in the mod section and I was able to get another 10 degrees out of the smoker. the smoker was in my garage but I maxed the temp and on my maverick it hit 261. thats all that I was looking for to compensate for the colder weather.
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Good feedback, Ed! I think you're the first to post how it worked.