Author Topic: Auto Tuning - Group Results  (Read 67070 times)

Wik

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 89
Auto Tuning - Group Results
« on: December 31, 2013, 01:05:27 AM »
Figured maybe working as a group we can aggregate a list of Auto Tuned values for the various SI models and also see what environmental variables have any impact.  Granted I'm pretty satisfied with the results I've seen so far with the Auber PID, but I'm hoping to learn more from the results.  I'm sure probe placement, outside temp, LBS of meat, Auto-Tuned at Start or near End, and By-Passed or not probably all come into play.  If anyone has results to add, I'll try and maintain the chart every so often.

Part of my curiosity is due to very stable temps early during my 15 LB turkey then towards the end it seemed to overshoot by more then I was used to.  The day was warmer then I had smoked in the past so maybe that had something to do with it.  I should have did another Auto-Tune at the tail end to see, but I didn't due to laziness.

Results so far:
ContributorPIDSI ModelAir TempMeat/LbsStart/EndByPassedNotes
Valid Range0-6000-9000-300
Preset70600150
Wik7571589#31F2 RibsStartNoWater Pan
Wik7571589#3-17F7.5lb Prime RibStartNoWater Pan - same results as before
Wik1120125#3-17F7.5lb Prime RibMid 60 ITNo'' lid open to cool to 160 before AT
Wik6173992#3-20F(2) 6.5 ButtsMid 150 ITNoWater Pan
Polish Q89909113#333F???
Polish Q4670896#330F??YesRange Vent Added
rajones1981487185#280FPan O'Sand?No


My Research: (comment if you have opinions / theories as I'm just learning)

P Setting
  • Controls when the power starts to cycle on / off and at a smaller on percentage the closer it gets to your temp
  • Setting of 100 means 0.1*100=10 degrees
  • Once it comes 10 degrees to reaching your set point it is at 100% power
  • Once it comes 5 degrees to reaching your set point it is at 50% power
  • Once it comes 2 degrees to reaching your set point it is at 20% power
  • Assuming the higher the number the slower it is at reaching your set temp
  • Assuming if too high it has a hard time reaching the set temp
  • Much of what I have read suggests if manually tuning set I & D to 0 then first figure out P
I Setting
  • Some type of time setting that helps anticipate / correct over & undershooting
  • Somehow affects P power calculation
  • If below set point it slowing increases current percentage up to 100% over time to help get rid of offset
D Setting
  • Some type of time setting that helps anticipate / correct over & undershooting
  • Somehow affects P power calculation
  • The Brakes I call it, if approaching set point to fast this helps control overshot

Video that helped cement in some concepts for on these variables for me:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SefKQb9y_B4

Armed with this I think I'll start manual tuning P = 150 and I = 0 and P = 0.  See if it cycles and if it reaches set temp or not.  I think we are reaching set point fairly quickly so my assumption is the higher value the more stable it will be, just won't reach set temp as quickly (slower ramp as we get closer).  Of course if P is too high I doubt we would even reach the set point.  There are so many variables here that even if I AT on one condition I doubt it is optimal for a different situation.

FYI - I tried I=0 and D=0 with P=300, P=200, P= 150, P=100, P=80, P=50, P=25 and it appeared that all but 50 and 25 couldn't even reach the set point.  So my theory is P=70 is probably not that bad, then it uses I to inch up to set point and D to help with overshooting.  Still trying to hone in on things, but maybe the amount of meat mass has a bigger impact then I first thought.  I'll probably continue with P=50 and messing around a bit more.

Please reply if interested with your Auto-Tune values and I'll edit this chart periodically.
         
Cheers,
Wik

« Last Edit: January 25, 2014, 01:28:45 AM by Wik »
Chad from Moorhead, MN
Proud #3 Owner

Three Sons BBQ

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 419
Re: Auto Tuning - Group Results
« Reply #1 on: December 31, 2013, 04:30:28 PM »
P 46
I 708
D 96

That's with 30 degF ambient.

I had to redo mine because I since have installed an exhaust hood which is slightly pulling air through the device at a rate higher than if there were no hood.
Brinkmann '07... Offset '11... Smokin-It '13!!!

DivotMaker

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10988
  • Model 1, 2D conversion, and 3D!
Re: Auto Tuning - Group Results
« Reply #2 on: December 31, 2013, 07:40:52 PM »
Hey Wik, great idea!  This could be very helpful.  I hope to be contributing to the discussion in the near future.  Right now, I'm the bystander soaking it all in!  Thanks for the info!
Tony from NW Arkansas
"Official Smokin-It Test Pilot"
Smokin-It Model 1, 2D conversion, and 3D
Auber PID, NexGrill 896 6-burner, CharBroil Big Easy, Anova Precision Cooker w/WiFi
Wife, Son and One REALLY Big Dog!

Three Sons BBQ

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 419
Re: Auto Tuning - Group Results
« Reply #3 on: December 31, 2013, 08:14:13 PM »
I'm now bypassed as of today Wik. !!!
Brinkmann '07... Offset '11... Smokin-It '13!!!

DivotMaker

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10988
  • Model 1, 2D conversion, and 3D!
Re: Auto Tuning - Group Results
« Reply #4 on: December 31, 2013, 08:20:36 PM »
I'm now bypassed as of today Wik. !!!

Probably still itching from the insulation! lol!
Tony from NW Arkansas
"Official Smokin-It Test Pilot"
Smokin-It Model 1, 2D conversion, and 3D
Auber PID, NexGrill 896 6-burner, CharBroil Big Easy, Anova Precision Cooker w/WiFi
Wife, Son and One REALLY Big Dog!

rajones19

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 9
Re: Auto Tuning - Group Results
« Reply #5 on: January 24, 2014, 10:54:00 AM »
I auto-tuned last summer; no idea what temps were, but I'm sure it was warm.

SI #2 - Can't remember if I had bypassed at that point, but I think not. Set for 225 degrees

P - 81
I - 487
D - 185

Load was a foil drip pan full of beach sand in the center of smoker - about the same size as the SI drip pan.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2014, 10:55:56 AM by rajones19 »

bluecatpride

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 28
Re: Auto Tuning - Group Results
« Reply #6 on: February 19, 2014, 01:15:20 PM »
From reading these post, it seems the auto turning should be done with a load in the cooker.  The manual does not state this information.  Just trying to figure out if I need to auto tune empty or with meat.  Any help is appreciated.

Three Sons BBQ

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 419
Re: Auto Tuning - Group Results
« Reply #7 on: February 19, 2014, 07:08:32 PM »
Yes.... With load in.
Brinkmann '07... Offset '11... Smokin-It '13!!!

DivotMaker

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10988
  • Model 1, 2D conversion, and 3D!
Re: Auto Tuning - Group Results
« Reply #8 on: February 19, 2014, 07:18:11 PM »
The mistake I made (which wasn't clear in the instructions, either) is not having a realistic cooking program set.  I "simulated" a meat load with 3 bricks and a full water pan, but couldn't tell you what was set in the program steps when I started!  Next time I smoke a pork butt or brisket, I'll run the autotune under "actual" cooking conditions!
Tony from NW Arkansas
"Official Smokin-It Test Pilot"
Smokin-It Model 1, 2D conversion, and 3D
Auber PID, NexGrill 896 6-burner, CharBroil Big Easy, Anova Precision Cooker w/WiFi
Wife, Son and One REALLY Big Dog!

bluecatpride

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 28
Re: Auto Tuning - Group Results
« Reply #9 on: February 19, 2014, 11:23:16 PM »
Thanks for the information. Doing it at the next cooking sounds like the way to go. Thanks again.

Three Sons BBQ

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 419
Re: Auto Tuning - Group Results
« Reply #10 on: February 20, 2014, 06:59:54 PM »
Auto tune for the next smoke of any meat you do and record... Then you are set....
Brinkmann '07... Offset '11... Smokin-It '13!!!

DivotMaker

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10988
  • Model 1, 2D conversion, and 3D!
Re: Auto Tuning - Group Results
« Reply #11 on: March 22, 2014, 09:01:46 PM »
I ran a test of the new Auber permanent probe today in the #2, with an autotune.  I put 3 bricks in the smoker, and a water pan full of hot water.  The Auber was set as follows:

C01   140   E01   t   t01   0.5
C02   225   E02   t   t02   10.0

I wanted to step the temp to 225, as I normally do.  I put the Maverick box temp probe through the top blow hole, at approximately the same level as the fixed probe (3" from the top). 

The autotune process was long, and the temps differed about 10 degrees.  Once the autotune completed, and was settled-in at 225, the Auber and Maverick were mostly the same, or within 1-degree of each other.  I'm satisfied that the fixed probe is accurate.

My autotune results, with the fixed temp probe, are:

P   62
I    902
D   112

Update:  This autotune seems to be dead-on!  When I did my epic 11 1/2 hour smoke on a 4 lb corned beef (unbelievable, I know, but I lived it), the temps held really tight the entire time.  Almost every time I went out and checked, it was sitting at 225.  I confirmed this with the Maverick, too.  I never saw it vary more than 1-degree.  Pretty happy with that!
« Last Edit: March 25, 2014, 07:54:09 PM by DivotMaker »
Tony from NW Arkansas
"Official Smokin-It Test Pilot"
Smokin-It Model 1, 2D conversion, and 3D
Auber PID, NexGrill 896 6-burner, CharBroil Big Easy, Anova Precision Cooker w/WiFi
Wife, Son and One REALLY Big Dog!

GeeBee

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 99
Re: Auto Tuning - Group Results
« Reply #12 on: April 05, 2014, 09:14:23 AM »
Wik, Tony or anyone else with ideas
I've been following this thread with interest. Tony has me convinced I'm going to have to open up my unit again, to install a permanent probe.......then I'm going to do an autotune. What I'm wondering is......should there be some kind of standardized autotune procedure? Something like.....3 standard bricks of x,y,z dimensions on the middle shelf, PID program of this, this and this, etc. I really don't want to do a 10+ hour autotune like Tony did. But I'm thinking you should probably incorporate low temps (say around 90 degrees) as well as high temps (say around 350) and of course our relatively standard temp of 225, and this should be done over several steps. I guess I'm just thinking out loud and looking for input.
Gary in Hebron, Ohio
#2 with Auber PID and happy about it !

DivotMaker

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10988
  • Model 1, 2D conversion, and 3D!
Re: Auto Tuning - Group Results
« Reply #13 on: April 05, 2014, 12:26:58 PM »
Gary,

The autotune process, itself, didn't take 10 hours.  It was done flashing in about 2 hours; I had just programmed 10 hours in the Auber so it wouldn't shut off too early.  According to Auber, you want to run the autotune as close as possible to "actual" cooking conditions.  I've done it with 3 bricks and a water pan, and during actual smokes.  I don't think the program is critical, as long as it's a "realistic" program.  The PID is learning the particulars of your smoker, such as how fast to ramp-up the temp, when to throttle-back as it nears the set point, and how much power to apply to maintain a given temp.  I think 2-3 programmed steps is sufficient. 

Since autotuning the fixed probe, it has performed incredibly well for a couple of different programs.  I did a 10 lb Boston butt last weekend, and it worked very well.  So, the point is, you don't have to get too technical, or complicated, to get good results.  Hope this helps!
Tony from NW Arkansas
"Official Smokin-It Test Pilot"
Smokin-It Model 1, 2D conversion, and 3D
Auber PID, NexGrill 896 6-burner, CharBroil Big Easy, Anova Precision Cooker w/WiFi
Wife, Son and One REALLY Big Dog!

GeeBee

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 99
Re: Auto Tuning - Group Results
« Reply #14 on: April 06, 2014, 09:49:56 AM »
OK now it's starting to make more sense. I guess cold smoking wouldn't need to be part of the equation, since we're "tricking" the smoker to do one thing, while it "thinks" it's doing something else. Again, just thinking out loud, but, I'm starting to formulate a plan ::)
Gary in Hebron, Ohio
#2 with Auber PID and happy about it !