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Recipes => Lamb => Topic started by: Sum1 on February 01, 2017, 12:36:13 AM
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Hi all.
In Chelsea Market in NYC, there’s an amazing butcher shop - Dickson's Farmstand Meats. These folks really understand meat. They offer superb raw meats, and many of their prepared products are top notch as well.
Among their excellent products, I discovered their lamb pastrami. Tasty beyond ridiculous. Whenever I’m in the area, I make it my business to get some, if they have it in stock. I’ve never seen anyone make lamb pastrami as they do. Theirs is just fantastic.
Now I’m trying to somehow duplicate it with my #1. I’m not trying to copy them, but I am trying to create lamb pastrami that can at least stand up to theirs. I see theirs as the gold standard, so if I'll create something as awesome I’ll be very happy, even if – or perhaps especially - it doesn’t taste likes theirs.
I’ve done various trials and was finally able to create a pastrami that has an excellent texture.
But my seasoning is still not perfect. It’s lacking that awesomeness that Dickson's pastrami has.
Allow me to outline what I’ve done. I’d be curious to hear your feedback. If you have any suggestions for awesome seasoning, or some other comments, I’d be grateful.
By the way, I haven’t been to Dickson's in a while. Next time I’m in the area, I’ll try to pick the brains of the sales people about the pastrami. But for now, I’d be curious to hear what YOU have to say.
I’m attaching a photo of Dickson's pastrami, and a photo of two of my last trials side by side - one that really shrank, losing all that yummy fat, and one with perfect texture but not perfect seasoning, which I’ll describe below.
So.. the questions to you are:
1. What seasoning would you use?
2. What would you do differently from what I’ve done, if at all?
3. Is the brine necessary and does it actually impart a flavor?
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Here it goes.
Ingredients
2 lamb bellies, totaling around 3.5-4p.
Brine:
1 gallon water
¾ c Kosher Salt
1 tbs pink salt
1 teaspoon black pepper
1 teaspoon fennel
1 teaspoon coriander
1 teaspoon clove
1 teaspoon cumin
6 cloves garlic, smashed with the skin on
2 sprigs rosemary
Seasoning
1 tbs whole black pepper
1 tbs coriander seeds
1 tbs cumin seeds
1 tbs fennel seeds
1½ tsp kosher salt
Directions
1. Bring all brine ingredients to a boil, turn heat off, and allow the brine to chill completely.
2. Strain the spices from the brine. If you don’t strain the spices, they will stick to the meat and it’ll be hell to remove. Pour the liquid into a container or a strong sealable bag, and transfer the meat to it, immersing it completely.
3. After 3 days, remove the meat from the brine, discard the brine, and pat dry both pieces. Place on a rack until fairy dry but slightly tacky, around 15 min.
4. Place all the whole seeds in a spice or coffee grinder, and grind coarsely. When well incorporated, add the salt and mix.
5. Rub the spice mixture into the lamb, completely covering both sides of each piece. Starting with the narrow side of the meat, roll both pieces into a single tight roll and tie tightly with butcher twine.
6. Using 3oz of oak, smoke the meat on 175F until internal temperature reaches 135F. This can take 6.5-7 hours.
7. Preheat oven to 225F. Use a pan that can hold a rack. Cover the bottom of the pan with an inch of boiling water. Place a rack over it, and place the lamb on the rack. Cover tightly with aluminum foil and steam for 5 hours.
8. Let the lamb cool to room temperature.
9. Transfer to fridge, and let cool overnight.
10. To serve, cut paper-thin slices.
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Sum, with respect to the brine it is critical in that it cures the meat. After the brine it is cured meat. The smoke and extra spice makes pastrami. Your spice mix looks about right. How was it not the same as the store bought? On thing I see in comparing the photos is that yours doesn't seem to have as much spice in the interior of the roll. I would also leave the spices in the brine and rinse before shaping the roll. I assume you roll after the brine. Spices sticking to the meat shouldn't be noticeable given you add more spices.
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that looks great to me! I have not made a pastrami before, but my buddy has a few times and I've talked with him in the past as the process went on. It took nearly 4 weeks total, we had to plan everything out by date so we had it for the weekend event we wanted it on. One thing I know he used was juniper berry in the brine. I know that brings something to the flavor profile and I see you don't have that in your recipe. Perhaps try that next time?
I love a good pastrami on Rye - I'll send you some home made rye bread for some pastrami ;D
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Sum, with respect to the brine it is critical in that it cures the meat. After the brine it is cured meat. The smoke and extra spice makes pastrami. Your spice mix looks about right. How was it not the same as the store bought? On thing I see in comparing the photos is that yours doesn't seem to have as much spice in the interior of the roll. I would also leave the spices in the brine and rinse before shaping the roll. I assume you roll after the brine. Spices sticking to the meat shouldn't be noticeable given you add more spices.
Bob, thanks.
1. How do I get the spices to be as thick as theirs? I don't think it's done by just piling more spices. Could it be that they mix the spices in some fat? Or some other agent (fat would melt...)?
2. The issue I'm having is not with the amount of spices, but that the mix is missing some oomph. It's a bit bland. Any ideas on how to improve it?
3. About the brine, how much flavor does it actually impart? I mean, does this or that added spice really make a difference? Or would just liquid, salt and pink salt would be pretty much the same?
4. When I make beef pastrami I leave the spices in the brine, and then just rinse the seeds off. But lamb belly behaves differently. The fat and even the meat get really sticky and the seeds stick to it. You end up with so many seeds that I wonder if it'll taste good. It might taste good, but so far I haven't taken the risk of going through the who process only to end up with a ton of seeds in the pastrami..
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that looks great to me! I have not made a pastrami before, but my buddy has a few times and I've talked with him in the past as the process went on. It took nearly 4 weeks total, we had to plan everything out by date so we had it for the weekend event we wanted it on. One thing I know he used was juniper berry in the brine. I know that brings something to the flavor profile and I see you don't have that in your recipe. Perhaps try that next time?
I love a good pastrami on Rye - I'll send you some home made rye bread for some pastrami ;D
Thanks, Jeremy
Did your buddy ever make lamb pastrami?
I use juniper in beef pastrami, not sure if it'll be so good with lamb...
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I think your process sounds great! The brine is absolutely necessary to cure the meat. Or it won't taste like pastrami. Since you are curing/brining for a few days, I think the spices in the brine do impart some flavor to the meat. Although that flavor is probably overpowered somewhat by the surface spices. My only comment from having made my own pastrami would be about the surface spices. And this is only my opinion, but to me, what makes pastrami taste like pastrami are coriander and black pepper as the dominant flavors. Coriander, fennel and cumin are ALL very strong flavors, and I'm wondering if those 3 flavors are fighting each other, being in equal parts like that. I would bump up the coriander and lower the fennel and cumin. I don't add fennel or cumin to beef pastrami, so I assume that is something specific to the lamb version. I have no idea what Dickson's tastes like. Maybe you could send me some? ;D I noticed you don't have anything in there from the allium family, so I think adding some garlic powder and onion powder might also help. Lamb loves garlic. (I don't think the garlic in the brine probably brings much flavor.) You might also consider whether mustard powder or brown sugar might add what you are looking for. As far as adding more rub, I would go by taste rather than appearance. The biggest mistake I made on my early pastrami was adding too much rub/pepper. This is the rub I have used for beef pastrami, from Amazing Ribs. Heavy on the coriander flavor. Supposed to be similar to Katz's. Being from Brooklyn, you probably already have a favorite beef pastrami rub. I'm sure the lamb pastrami has a different flavor though.
4 tablespoons fresh coarsely ground black pepper
(Note: I found 4 tablespoons pepper to be way too much. All I could taste was pepper and could not taste the coriander or other spices. I use 2 tablespoons max.)
2 tablespoons coriander powder
1 teaspoon mustard powder
1 tablespoon brown sugar
1 tablespoon paprika
2 teaspoons garlic powder
2 teaspoons onion powder
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Thanks, Jeremy
Did your buddy ever make lamb pastrami?
I use juniper in beef pastrami, not sure if it'll be so good with lamb...
No he hasn't. He has only made beef.
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I agree with Kari on the coriander. You also might try toasting the spices in a dry pan before use. Fresh spices make all the difference.
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Thanks all for your ideas.
I ended up calling Dickson's directly, asking for the spices they use.
I was told they use the following:
Black pepper
Coriander
Cardamom
Sumac
Aleppo pepper
I would have never thought that this is their mix...
Now I'll have to figure out the ratios... :)
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Thanks all for your ideas.
I ended up calling Dickson's directly, asking for the spices they use.
I was told they use the following:
Black pepper
Coriander
Cardamom
Sumac
Aleppo pepper
I would have never thought that this is their mix...
Now I'll have to figure out the ratios... :)
I can't believe they told you. :o Sounds more middle-eastern, so makes sense with the lamb.
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I didn't think they would tell me either... but I figured it doesn't hurt to ask...
Now I have two bellies in the brine. I'll go there again on Sat, hopefully they'll have some available and then I'll try to figure out the ratios...
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Be careful with the Cardamom. That stuff can taste medicinal in a hurry. Since the pastrami is smoked, it might be hard to tell if they used black or green cardamom. I would probably go with green, since you'll be smoking it anyway.
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Thanks, I didn't know there was a difference. I rarely use cardamon and in my kitchen I only have old green cardamon pods..
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You might want to use green then. That's the only one I have. I buy all of my spices at a Penzey's retail store, where they have jars of everything that you can "sniff", and the black ones smell absolutely vile. I can not bring myself to buy them, plus there's the fact that I haven't had a recipe that called the black ones yet, in which case I would. Sometimes something that smells bad tastes good. For example, I love eating limburger cheese, but it smells like stinky feet. There is also white cardamom which is used mostly in northern Europe for baking.
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I went there today and got some more. First off, there's no way that the spices I listed are the spices. When the guy told me that that's the mix, I thought it was strange. But now that I tasted it again, there's no way that those are the spices. Perhaps he gave me the spaces of one of their sausages. I also spoke to someone else behind the counter, and he gave me a completely different list, which make a lot more sense. I'll just have to experiment more.
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Here's what I've done today, based on what I was told by the Dickson's crew and Kari and Bob's comments.
2 lamb bellies, totaling 6.6 p.
Brined 3.5 days.
Using the process I outlined above. With the following changes:
Seasoning:
4T Whole black pepper
4T Coriander seeds
2T Cumin seeds
3 tsp Yellow mustard seeds
4T Light brown sugar
2T Garlic flakes or granulated
6T oil
- Toast the whole seeds, and grind them coarsely in a spice or coffee grinder. Add the remaining dry ingredients and pulse briefly in the grinder until incorporated.
- Mix in the oil until a paste is formed.
At first, I tried half the seasoning amounts, but the paste is thicker and requires double, and even then most of the seasoning is rolled inside, not on top as Dickson's do it. I ran out of rub paste and I figured that the seanoning inside should suffice.
Now the pastrami is in the smoker (3.5oz oak). After smoking, steaming and cooling, I'll know tomorrow how it came out and whether or not I need to modify things. I do think it'll be better than previous trials, but I'm not sure that it'll match Dickson's. Stay tuned...
What do you think?
Here are today's photos.
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Sounds like you are more on track for the typical pastrami flavors, with the addition of cumin. Seems like it should taste good, even if it's not Dickson's. Sounds like they are "Dickson's" you around. I was inspired by your bravery and went to my local deli to pick their brain about their pastrami. The guy behind the counter obviously had little information about the process, but shared a couple tiny details, none of which was earthshaking.
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I'm pretty sure this time around I got the real info, not only because it actually tastes that way, but also because this is what its chef says in this 2010 article that I found after my last visit there. The guy over the counter told me that their lamb pastrami rub is identical to their beef pastrami rub, only with the added cumin, and that they turn the rub into a paste by adding grapeseed oil. That lead me to search about Dickson's beef rub and other sites. Finally, I found this:
http://nymag.com/restaurants/features/66164/
I'll know tomorrow. I didn't have time to steam it yesterday, so it's steaming now and after cooling overnight in the fridge I'll see how it comes out.
Most folks behind the counter in a local deli wouldn't know much about the details of the spices etc. But Dickson's is something else. It's probably the best boutique butcher shop in NY. The staff better know their stuff..
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Ok, my verdict is that the rub I made isn't quite there yet. It's too sweet and not spicy enough.
I think I need to half the sugar, and double the cumin and mustard. I'll experiment with just the rub ingredients on their own and see.
But at least it LOOKS good... and tastes not bad.